hxcbbqimo:

dang you're close-minded. i'm saying it's not a problem with the win ratios being around those numbers(if they are correct) cause that's what makes it an e-sport enjoyable to watch

you obviously don't understand though, so let me give you an example:
if you are going to bet on a soccer game, there has to be chances and risks that makes it enjoyable to watch. nobody wants to watch a game when everyone knows a certain team will win.

with your argument it's better seeing same players win over and over again(which results in nothing enjoyable to watch, due to having the same outcome everytime)
my argument is that the luck factor is perfect, cause it makes unpredictable things happen. seeing a famous player lose is hella lot funnier.

with this being said, it's not toribash nor the mods fault.
but rather what pusga and ynvaser pointed out.


opinions like these are what the devs needs to listen to, but they choose to rely on their mods and not give a single fuck.

he would probably win more actually. but not 100% because there is the luck factor to take into account. it is a good thing because it prevents matches from being possible to predict with 100% accuracy. what is the point of watching the thing if you can calculate the outcome?

a system that almost always allows the superior player to win does not sound like a good idea to me. might aswell /fwin whoever had the higher win ratio. you have to take into account that luck also benefits the superior player, not only the inferior player. it isnt unfair by default.

If that were what was going on right now, Toribash would be a much better spot than it is today for e-sport capabilities. If it took two teams of equal or relatively equal skill in the same league to put up a fight where you don't know the winner, then sure, you have a spectator sport.

But if you, and a few friends of yours, just put on some soccer cleats and knee pads for the first time and then did a few scrimmage games against some team that's in the finals for the World Cup... and you win (despite you learning the sport... yesterday), holy cow does that cheapen the whole point of the sport. That's the equivalent of what happens on Toribash every day. I don't have a problem if Ern, Nuthug, War_Hero, Moop, Imsku, and 0815Rocker all playing each other in TK and you not knowing who is going to win at any time. I don't even have a problem with 1 out of every 10 games a random 10th Dan Black Belt beating one of those people in TK who isn't out of this world great. I have a huge problem with the fact that there are terrible players who are brand new to the game that on too frequently of occasions can and do beat the greatest players to grace Toribash. Let alone the people who have been here for a year that seem to almost be able to trade 50-50 with them.

There has to be a balance between a sense of wonderment of who will win AND the level of praise of feeling like what the pros or doing is something so much higher level than what you've been able to do and because of it you're no match for them. It gives you something to aspire to. When I see at 25 minutes into a game someone has 300 creep kills in LoL, one of the most popular E-Sports out there, I get filled with amazement because I know with all my practice and knowledge I don't even get half that usually. However, when two clans play each other in league, you don't know who will win. What you do know is 99% of the time you take any professional player and pin them 1 on 1 with an amateur player he will win. We don't have that balance worked out at all.


@Pusga: I'd love love love for you to be right, but from my experience in the years and years and nearly 40,000 games of Toribash, I haven't seen that to be anywhere near true. I hope you are right though, it'd actually make me happier.




That really does deserve to be repeated and sank into people's heads: holy cow I'd love to be proven wrong. It'd leave so much for me to aspire to and renew so much of my faith in the competitive element of the game if I could find a player who actually can win as much as people claim they can.

you say in your posts that an amateur player can beat a really good one but i have never actually seen that happen consistently. i go on taekkyon rooms once in a while and get killed by players that are supposedly worse than me (not very easy to be worse than me but they exist), but that only happens because i am not actually playing seriously. the only way to determine if those statistics are true would be to put someone amateur against someone really good in a competitive fight, which doesnt happen very often. whenever new players join in a tournament or something they do not last. i have never seen a "nobody" win an event where other good players also participated.

I think that good players can beat low-skill players consistently in fair mods, and I don't know what you are on about, Hax.
Getting beaten by newbs is a thing that happens when you don't play to win (e.g.: wushu, coming back, not rushing the other player down), but it is offset by the times they fall on their faces on their own when you let go of them.
Tl;dr: You might not be the great player you think you are.

I don't see why we're making a discussion about how to make a game more suited for e-sports personal. I stated my opinion based off statistics and my own experiences accrued over time and I hoped others would add their own individual contributions to the conversation. It's really easy to say "I disagree with you", it's a lot harder to consistently add something of value that's new or interesting to think about.

Anywho I can't see it getting more constructive with my presence here so I'll just say my peace:

I haven't seen any particular player in Toribash in the last few years dominate the game. I've seen the skill cap get higher and higher, certainly, and the general public has definitely improved; however, I haven't seen anyone go into a room and you can just expect them to win streak. Not hard enough anyways. If I see the next nuthug 30 game win streaking people in aikido (or the current one for that matter) against people who have owned the game for 6 months, I'd be wrong. Like I've said multiple times now, I really want to be wrong. I'd love to see real actual dominating forces in the game, it's inspiring. It gives me something to work towards and I love the competition. I have no problem finding loads of faults in myself, I bring them up everyday. I don't pretend to be anywhere near the best. If I'm bias- I'm bias towards hoping to see pro players get many streaks. I just don't see it anymore. I don't know if that's the game's fault, the mod's fault, or the player's fault. I'm just saying what I'm seeing.

Have a good one

leagues, tiers and seeding.
great players shouldnt be playing new players.

establish a series of smaller leagues that are split into tier 1-3 groups.
the same way sports do it with premier and championship divisions, or starcraft had their grandmasters etc.
tier 1 being elite players, tier 3 being not so elite.

you wont have to worry about your fav players losing to nubs on streams if they arent fighting nubs on streams.


player fault, no one rocks out.
obviously the luck element is still there, but i still consider it player fault.
if even i could streak on demand, back in the day, then surely the top players can, they just need to start thinking during their games.


if the mod list were set, and you only had to know one kind of wushu, no one could run away from you.
if the comp mods had longer reaction times between turns to assess and set up their moves, we'd have better fights. whatever the reaction times are now for mods, is enough to react, but not enough to put much thought into your moves. comp games shouldnt be concerned about time, but rather concerned with quality.

avoiding issue is not solving the issue.
you can join any quake server, and if pro player joins it too - the server is getting dominated, no matter even if everyone else pit against him.
another example: strike vector (6 dof quake), pro player getting 20-26 frags on deathmatch in one streak, while rest are just collateral damage and get like 4-5 frags.
when you can clearly see if player is pro or not is the exact moment when the game can be considered competative.
long reaction times are terrile idea for making tb more competative, on contrary, ability to think and make decisions fast is a skill and sould be cornerstone for tb.

actually the person who is able to make correct decisions would be a better indicator of skill rather than if the person is able to move in time, especially in a turn based game like this

If you want Tb to be E-sport then talk with higher ups. If they want that it will happen, if they don't want it it will not. Plain and simple.

Look at the games like 'Wold of tanks'. RNG factor is +/- 25%. 25%!!!! Yes you need to aim for weak spots, yes you need skill, but you also need to be either very lucky or unlucky to pen someone from 150 m. But, they made it to a E-sport, game is popular, their COs made a decision and it happen. Maps are boring, every fight is a camp fest, personal skill of players affect like 75-80% of games, but it is an E-sport game.

And, guess what else, they have a competitions 1:1 where pro players fight, but EVERYBODY are using mods that are actually CHEATS, like ping on mini map when enemy tank topple the tree (so you know from where he is coming), fire extinguishers that work the same moment you are on fire (although they are not automatic fire extinguishers), laser points that can show you in which direction enemy turret is angled and bunch of other stuff, like removing the rocks and flora so you can target enemy tank without obscured vision, etc

But, guess what? No ONE CARES. They made it into e-sport and it is there. Game is popular and ppl like it.

So, it's a higher ups decision. Every other problem can be solved (or not ) later.