First of all, Dirt was clearly AIC's breakthrough album, both critically and commercially, as Facelift was a relative commercial and critical failure. After releasing Facelift, Alice In Chains were as famous as Nirvana was after releasing Bleach. That is to say, not very famous at all. Now I have nothing wrong with adding great songs that were never famous until fairly long after they were made (see anything by the Velvet Underground), so that is not enough reason to not move it higher. It also made it onto both of these fairly prestigious lists as you said. Unfortunately, I have no trust for Vh1 voters (they placed Livin' On a Prayer - Bon Jovi as the greatest song of the '80s). In addition to that, the second list you mentioned was a list made by GuitarWorld magazine, not Vh1 (Vh1 doesn't have a magazine). My distrust for Vh1 is shown in that many of the songs listed higher than Man in the Box in the Vh1 list are not even on this list. (see Welcome to the Jungle, Back in Black, You've Got Another Thing Coming, etc.). I realize that just because a song is a good metal song doesn't instantly make it good enough to be here (see Back in Black), and vice versa (See A Day In the Life). So, the fact that Man in the Box is among the "greatest" metal songs in a joke TV network's list is not irrelevant, but not very helpful. As for guitar solos, I like that list, but the same rule applies: just because a song has a good guitar solo doesn't mean it's good enough to be here (see Maggot Brain - Funkadelic) and vice versa (see London Calling). This rule is because music is more than specific lists about genres and solos. So, all this (lack of majormainstream success [edit: it did reach number 8 on the modern rock tracks], being on an list not worth crediting, and another list that is only mildly interesting but fairly irrelevant) begs the question... why is this so important? You tell me. Was it inspiring to a whole generation of drug abusers and low-life cast-offs from society? That would be important. Or was it just a stereotypical grunge-metal song? These are questions I need you to answer, or I'll chose what the hard evidence shows.
Originally Posted by SporeCc
First of all, Dirt was clearly AIC's breakthrough album, both critically and commercially, as Facelift was a relative commercial and critical failure. After releasing Facelift, Alice In Chains were as famous as Nirvana was after releasing Bleach. That is to say, not very famous at all. Now I have nothing wrong with adding great songs that were never famous until fairly long after they were made (see anything by the Velvet Underground), so that is not enough reason to not move it higher. It also made it onto both of these fairly prestigious lists as you said. Unfortunately, I have no trust for Vh1 voters (they placed Livin' On a Prayer - Bon Jovi as the greatest song of the '80s). In addition to that, the second list you mentioned was a list made by GuitarWorld magazine, not Vh1 (Vh1 doesn't have a magazine). My distrust for Vh1 is shown in that many of the songs listed higher than Man in the Box in the Vh1 list are not even on this list. (see Welcome to the Jungle, Back in Black, You've Got Another Thing Coming, etc.). I realize that just because a song is a good metal song doesn't instantly make it good enough to be here (see Back in Black), and vice versa (See A Day In the Life). So, the fact that Man in the Box is among the "greatest" metal songs in a joke TV network's list is not irrelevant, but not very helpful. As for guitar solos, I like that list, but the same rule applies: just because a song has a good guitar solo doesn't mean it's good enough to be here (see Maggot Brain - Funkadelic) and vice versa (see London Calling). This rule is because music is more than specific lists about genres and solos. So, all this (lack of majormainstream success [edit: it did reach number 8 on the modern rock tracks], being on an list not worth crediting, and another list that is only mildly interesting but fairly irrelevant) begs the question... why is this so important? You tell me. Was it inspiring to a whole generation of drug abusers and low-life cast-offs from society? That would be important. Or was it just a stereotypical grunge-metal song? These are questions I need you to answer, or I'll chose what the hard evidence shows.
Facelift a critical failure? Do you have any idea about you're talking about? When Facelift was released, everyone went for it because of Man in the Box, and because it got them famous, it couldn't have been a critical failure. It would only be considered that it if didn't even have a hit on it. Man in the Box is a HUGE hit in the rock world. We Die Young, which came off of that album, was nominated for 'Best Hard Rock Performance' alongside Metallica. A critical failure is a bad word to use for this album.
I see you have undying hate of 80s rock music. Living on a Prayer was also a huge hit in the 80s, and no matter how much yoy hate it, you can't change the fact that that song was one of the biggest rock songs created in the 80s. That song had every right to be number one on that list regardless. Frankly, I can't fully trust your opinion on what goes on this list either. This seems more like a list for non-1980s music. :/
Sorry about my mistake, I got GuitarWorld and VH1 mixed up.
Inspiring to druge abusers and low lifes?? You absolutely do have no idea about what you're talking about when it comes to Alice in Chains. You really need to understand how emotional all of Alice in Chains's music really is, and not to ever generalize it as just another grunge song. This song is more mature and deep than most of the damn songs on your list. For example, Smells Like Teen Spirit. Of course you would, at most, rate the song as a generic grunge-metal song, only because you don't even listen to them and IF YOU DO, then you don't understand their music.
Last edited by Drummer; Mar 28, 2009 at 11:43 PM.
I have left Toribash, but will drop in occasionally on the forums and IRC. Still in Sigma.
Critical and Commercial are two VERY different things. Critical Success means that the album was praised by CRITICS. Commercial success means that people bought it. Critics don't care about hits. Since critics didn't praise it (Allmusic gave it 3/5 stars) and most of the people that bought it didn't buy it until Dirt was released (it only sold 40,000 copies in its first 6 months, it was a relative commercial (at first) and critical failure. It also didn't get them famous. Dirt affirmed their fame. Yes, now Man in the Box is famous. That is because of both the success (both critical and commercial) of Dirt and the unfortunate passing of Layne Staley. Also, I don't think you understood me. I placed your song on the list of the 100 greatest songs of all time. I personally love Dave Matthews Band, but I am not too proud in my fan-dom to place a song of theirs on here when it obviously doesn't belong. Maybe you should cut your losses rather than getting so angry.
Secondly: I absolutely don't hate 80's rock, I just hate most 80's mainstream rock. Here's why. It's almost all the same ridiculous indulgent commercial garbage. In fact, it's the same as today's pop in that way, ergo, terrible. Bon Jovi, Twisted Sister, Poison, etc. are all the same: Crappy arena "rockers" trying to make money with a few catchy hooks and stupid hair. I don't care how big a hit Livin' On a Prayer was, it's still a disgrace to music. You know what else was a hit? That awful "Right Round" song by that idiot "Flo Rida". Are you going to go defend that now? Want real 80's music? Listen to U2, R.E.M., the B-52s, Joy Division, Peter Gabriel, 10,000 Maniacs, Michael Jackson, Run-DMC, or NWA. Just spare me a defense of "hair metal" and its ilk.
Thirdly, my use of low-lifes may not have been correct. I meant people that mainstream society disrespects. Those people were the main audience of grunge music. I don't mean that as an insult at all. In fact, a song that was inspiring to these core grunge listeners would be very important. Smells Like Teen Spirit is the best example of that, actually. Such a good song, in fact, that it appealed to far more than these core grunge listeners. Obviously, the song would appeal to drug abusers. That shouldnt be offensive to you, as most of what Staley wrote was about his heroin addicition (see anything on Dirt). Man In the Box may have been about censorship in media, but that doesn't discount what they were about. In fact, a lot of grunge bands touched on that topic. To me, because i'm not that huge an AIC fan (I have Facelift, Dirt, and then one song from their eponymous album called Sludge Factory), the song just seems like your run of the mill grunge song about censorship in media. Its advantage is that the musicians in the band were far more talented than most grunge musicians, producing that awesome crunchy sound and that killer guitar solo.
Anyway, despite your annoying and disheartening defense of random 80s garbage, I'll move it up. Nice argument, bud ;)
Edit: Changes Made:
Man in the Box - Alice in Chains knocked California Love - 2Pac down to the 100 spot for the 86 spot.
Secondly: I absolutely don't hate 80's rock, I just hate most 80's mainstream rock. Here's why. It's almost all the same ridiculous indulgent commercial garbage. In fact, it's the same as today's pop in that way, ergo, terrible. Bon Jovi, Twisted Sister, Poison, etc. are all the same: Crappy arena "rockers" trying to make money with a few catchy hooks and stupid hair. I don't care how big a hit Livin' On a Prayer was, it's still a disgrace to music. You know what else was a hit? That awful "Right Round" song by that idiot "Flo Rida". Are you going to go defend that now? Want real 80's music? Listen to U2, R.E.M., the B-52s, Joy Division, Peter Gabriel, 10,000 Maniacs, Michael Jackson, Run-DMC, or NWA. Just spare me a defense of "hair metal" and its ilk.
Thirdly, my use of low-lifes may not have been correct. I meant people that mainstream society disrespects. Those people were the main audience of grunge music. I don't mean that as an insult at all. In fact, a song that was inspiring to these core grunge listeners would be very important. Smells Like Teen Spirit is the best example of that, actually. Such a good song, in fact, that it appealed to far more than these core grunge listeners. Obviously, the song would appeal to drug abusers. That shouldnt be offensive to you, as most of what Staley wrote was about his heroin addicition (see anything on Dirt). Man In the Box may have been about censorship in media, but that doesn't discount what they were about. In fact, a lot of grunge bands touched on that topic. To me, because i'm not that huge an AIC fan (I have Facelift, Dirt, and then one song from their eponymous album called Sludge Factory), the song just seems like your run of the mill grunge song about censorship in media. Its advantage is that the musicians in the band were far more talented than most grunge musicians, producing that awesome crunchy sound and that killer guitar solo.
Anyway, despite your annoying and disheartening defense of random 80s garbage, I'll move it up. Nice argument, bud ;)
Edit: Changes Made:
Man in the Box - Alice in Chains knocked California Love - 2Pac down to the 100 spot for the 86 spot.
Last edited by SporeCc; Mar 29, 2009 at 12:27 AM.
Too bad. Romeo and Juliet is better anyway, and that's there. Also, beautiful Anthony Kiedis signature.
Last edited by SporeCc; Mar 29, 2009 at 01:32 AM.
