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Old May 23, 2013 Original Post  
Bodhisattva
 
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Reinstate a Past Ranking System (An Argument for Change)
Please think clearly about what I'm going to say about the ranking system before you just say no.

This ranking system was a cool attempt at making the "better players" have a higher rank but it simply didn't work.

To quote [RAWR]Dargon:

The problem is ELO systems don't work in a game like toribash.

My main argument is that the current ELO system supports the absolute opposite of what Nabi Studios would want to have in an atmosphere to acquire new players. It also casts out enthused players who want to try lots of different things and learn from better more experienced people.


1) The current system rewards those who don't try a variety of mods.

Most high rank people (Read: 1-35) are there because they played the hell out of 1 mod and didn't venture off to try other mods. The point being that it's way easier to go 60 wins 2 losses in a game like jousting with one decent opener against new players and have a super high ELO (proof... well me) than it is to go 20-5 in a slower mod like Wushu.

Playing MORE mods should be what the game encourages; however, if you start playing aikido and only have an ELO of say 1610, when your jousting ELO is 1700, your rank plummets. Thus playing more mods currently is a bad thing.

2) The point system doesn't work and frustrates members.

A good example is what happened to me yesterday. I played brushu, and won a game against [fl0w]Deprav (a highly ranked brushu player), then a game against [Alpha]Logic (the #1 ranked brushu player in toribash), followed by a loss to the ranked 120th player or somewhere in that region. The net result? I actually lost 2 ELO points. I won 2 games, and lost 1, my 2 games were incredibly quality wins, and actually got a WORSE rank.

This just goes to show the math simply isn't working here. If you can beat the absolute best player, a fantastic player, and then lose to a great player, and be worse off when you started... well that's simply counter-intuitive isn't it?


3) The current system discourages playing people who aren't good (the Ambassador argument)

Better players of toribash are really the ambassadors for Nabi studios more than even GameMasters from time to time. They give new people a chance of what could come of them and the beauty of highly skill play. But the current system deterrs amazing people to play those who aren't good because one lost game can make the great player lose a LOAD of ranking. Getting a streak of 5, then losing once, only to have the same or worst ranking as you started is completely disheartening. You should want great players to want to play with not-so-great-ones to really show what your character can look like, what toris can do, and learn from them.

http://forum.toribash.com/tori_ranki...?username=Mojo This is the #1 Ranked player in Toribash. Check out the stats. Notice anything? Outside of JOUSTING and KATANA this player, the player who will represent all of the thousands of thousands of players who some started in 7 years ago as NUMBER ONE has a 1600 ranking in almost every skill mod out there. Has Wushu3, aikido, taekkyon, you name it. 1600 is the starting elo...

4) Our current top ranked leaders aren't role-models (a continuation of the Ambassador argument)

SEVEN of the top TEN players ranked globally in toribash haven't reached 3rd Dan Black Belt. Two of them haven't even reached black belt yet. These members aren't well-known good people in great clans that people aspire to. There are absolutely amazing players in clans like [RAWR] whos rank is near the 2000's meanwhile players you and I have never even heard of are sporting the highest of ranks. Is that really who you want to learn is the "best"? Who would you feel more comfortable being rank 5: TIcux, or "BigClitor" or "BigPrick" (I kid you not, those last 2 are both in the top 10)

5) Promotes rage quitting. It's simple: if you have a 1700 mmr in jousting and someone has a 1590 mmr rating, and they are about to lose to you, they'll lose a shit ton of ranking unless they ragequit. We should be encouraging people to stay the whole match.



TLR Summary

The current system makes unaccomplished players look like heroes to new players, tells people not to play a variety of mods, encourages the play of simple fast mods like judo and jousting over a variety of mods that might take more skill (aikido, aikidobigdojo, lenshu, wushu, taekkyon, judofrac) to name a few, mathematically seems to not work, and discourages the great players who should serve as ambassadors from playing with new players, and RAGE QUITTING.



The Solution? Bring back the QI system!!!

The highest rank people should be the people with the highest QI because that's what actually works in Toribash. Why?

1) Because rage quitting sucks and we should encourage people to stay through the whole match. Rank 15 whoever should want to accept defeat against rank 500,000 white belt honorably because he might be getting closer to Rank 14. Meanwhile, that white belt's DAY WAS MADE beating you.

2) It give quantifiable reason to PLAY TORIBASH. The more you play, the more QI you get, the higher your rank. The old people who have given years and years don't feel like idiots with thumbs up where the sun don't shine because they're rank 3000, and the newer players WANT black belt, 2nd dan, 5th dan, 10th dan, WHATEVER to improve their rank! Isn't a line-up like Tripstone, DJ, TIcux, Nuthug, Kamiko, Dargon a better top 6 than .... Mojo, Kindercat, zaeby, PREY3R, and pedart?

3) It doesn't discourage you from playing any mod you want. Sure, jousting is faster than aikido, and a person who only plays jousting will get QI faster and have a higher rank. But at least if you like jousting, and you decide to play some aikido, you won't completely f over your rank playing it.

4) It encourages coherency AND LEARNING throughout toribash. When you want to get good at a mod, you typically surround yourself with people much better than you (ergo, want to be an aikido player? Play team sambo members. Etc). But you're going to lose a lot doing that. I don't think you should hate yourself from trying to learn a mod because it dropped your rank from 200 to 1700.



And I ALREADY know the major criticism. THIS SYSTEM PROMOTES FARMING!!!

Yes. It does. Having QI determine your rank absolutely promotes farming. But what sounds better of a problem? Farmers farming, and more than likely getting caught because we have ways to catch farmers pretty easily (check out that community ban list!) or having hundreds of people rage quitting to save their rank? Losing rank by the hundreds from trying something new? I think the choice is obvious.


A last point

All of toribash has ever been is playing more toribash. Since you first joined, you probably wanted to wear a color that required you play more games, or get a belt you want, even a custom belt, etc. Make the system reflect what toribash is actually about-> stress-free fun, punishment free, playing. We already have our win-loss ratio publicly posted. If you want to prove your skilled try to increase that. There's no need for this system which 100% DOESN'T work.




To those of you who have read all of that, thank you. I appreciate it. To those of you who didn't, I recommend you do, because you're going to probably make posts that I've already addressed in this argument.
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Last edited by Bodhisattva; May 23, 2013 at 02:21 AM..
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Old Aug 28, 2014   #111
Toxic
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Originally Posted by FistofLife View Post
This is basically my idea but a much simpler, and since Toribash is pretty basic (and lazy) this actually looks achievable.

Maybe mods could be on a rotation thing for lobbys, so every 24 hours all rank lobby's mod changed. E.g

Mon: Lenshu3ng.tbm
Tue: ErthTKv2.tbm
Wed: AikidoBigDojo.tbm
Thur: Boxshu.tbm
Fri: Greykido.tbm
Sat: Rk-MMA.tbm
Sun: Boxshu_mushu_v2.tbm

Thing is, instead of QI restrictions for lobbys, it has ranked lobby restrictions. So you start at lobbys that have:
Lobby1: Rank 50,000 +
Lobby2: Rank 35,000 - 50,000
Lobby3: Rank 35,000 - 15,000
Lobby4: Rank 15,000 - 5,000
Lobby5: Rank 5,000 - 1,000
Lobby6: Rank 1000 - 250
Lobby7: Rank 250 - 1.

Since QI restrictions should also be in place to stop alts and in general, higher QI 'deserves' (kinda) a better rank. Lobbys 1 - 3 could be for all. Lobbys 4 -5 could be 1,000 QI plus. Lobby 6 could be 2,000 QI + and lobby 7 could be 3,000 QI +

I actually think this is a very good idea. I think the only way to actually gain a better rank is beating the people close to your own rank. This way farming would not be able to be done or would be rather hard. Maybe some simple tweaks and polishing can make this work and actually represent skill.
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Old Aug 28, 2014   #112
hobo
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as i've come to notice, those that play a lot, are good, and active certainly have higher ranks
sure there are those few that have stolen the position with high globals because they spam one mod
but i don't see a urgent, if any, need to change the elo system

if you truly believe that a rank decides a persons skill then making this for that reason is stupid
what i do believe it that creating a fair system with fair ranking is a lovely idea
yet as of now i don't think creating a working system that doesn't seem overbearing is possible

fist's idea is grand yet it limits play on certain mods and makes people forced to be active other than letting people play casually and at their own pace

sure grouping is possible but then it doesn't expose you to tactics and words of advice (from those that give)
the only thing i see that could work would be limiting alt rank gain
ynvaster proposed limits on certain belt ranks to keep them from farming mod/global rank
this is a fabulous idea if refined
i think that the main issue with the rest of the elo system is that of low belt alts/good people "stealing" them
imo you should all focus on that aspect rather than the whole refining of servers and ect
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Old Aug 29, 2014   #113
&Fear
 
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Originally Posted by hobo View Post
fist's idea is grand yet it limits play on certain mods and makes people forced to be active other than letting people play casually and at their own pace

About the restriction for mods, like I said, ideally community feedback would be listened to and a consensus could be reached over the mods that we all feel are good enough to deserve ranking.

About your other point, the whole point of a ranking system is to encourage competitive, tryhard play. If you are casual you wouldn't care about your rank anyway right?

You also brought up something about players not getting to learn from the pros. Well, don't forget these ranked rooms won't remove user rooms from the game, you'll probably run into higher ranked players all the time in tourneys if nowhere else.
Also, the system allows you to always be playing with people who are better than you, because if you are ever superior to your current 'tier', you will rise out of it!

Also,

'Hey this is just like the ranking in League'
'Hey this is just like the ranking in Starcraft'
'Hey this is just like the ranking in...'

I feel like this is a sign that this kind of system works in practice too.

Last edited by Fear; Aug 29, 2014 at 02:58 AM..
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Old Sep 27, 2014   #114
FistofLife
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Does anyone know if Hampa or the devs have any sort of future ideas to implement a competitive ranking system?

Also recently I have realised another reason why a competitive ranking system is needed. Toribash has been pretty boring for me (and im sure others) because it just isn't competitive.. all it is, is just noob beating or duelling. The problem with duelling is that it tends to follow metas, like over the last few month's it has been non stop Boxshu_Mushu_v2 (v3) and it has been pretty hard to find a duel in other mods such as RK or Lenshu.

(/bumb if anyone knows about there being plans for a new rank system)
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Old Sep 28, 2014   #115
Odlov
 
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Personally I'd just get rid of ranks altogether. Never really liked them. Or, at least, get rid of the "global" rank and leave individual mod ranks as is. That way, people won't be penalized for exploring new mods. The rage-quitting issue could be treated by increasing elo penalty for doing it (it will suck for people who ping often, but such is life).

Last edited by Odlov; Sep 28, 2014 at 02:19 AM..
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Old Sep 28, 2014   #116
Eddylee
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Rankin should be based on the average of your win loss ratio with all the mods. Not sure if someone said this but and a combination of matches played. Not sure how u do this but it seems logical
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Old Sep 28, 2014   #117
FistofLife
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Originally Posted by Eddylee View Post
Rankin should be based on the average of your win loss ratio with all the mods. Not sure if someone said this but and a combination of matches played. Not sure how u do this but it seems logical

It pretty much is Eddy, but the problem here is that it just encourages noob farming. If me or you were only to play white / yellow belts we would have %90 win ratio and if we did it for about 500 games we would be global rank 1. This proves nothing about skill at all since the moment you play a 5th Dan + you would get about %40 - %60 ratio.
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Old Sep 28, 2014   #118
Toxic
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This thread has been open for 1 year+ and many new ideas have been suggested but nothing has been done, are devs actually going to make any changes on this?
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