Those problems are slowly being fixed. I agree with you. I think Mean Streets dun goof'd and this package of cards has much less cards focused on draw RNG. A good example of how they fixed it was making such cheap elemental generating elemental cards, so you could always have elements at the ready to activate your next turn. And by playing them, you're choreographing your next turn, so your opponent can play around it. That stuff makes me happy.
I'm a great deal more okay with a 10 mana card having a holy shit effect and there only being one like N'zoth than a card like Clutchmother Zavas, a 2 mana legendary that came out in Un'Goro. It didn't need to be a legendary. It could've been a 2 mana 2/2 with +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 and it would've been discard lock more consistent, discard RNG would be smaller, and draw RNG would be smaller.
And I still hate the Paladin quest legendary.
@Solax: there are good addons to help you draft a good arena deck. Being proficient in arena will net you lots of dust, gold, and packs.
I'm a great deal more okay with a 10 mana card having a holy shit effect and there only being one like N'zoth than a card like Clutchmother Zavas, a 2 mana legendary that came out in Un'Goro. It didn't need to be a legendary. It could've been a 2 mana 2/2 with +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 and it would've been discard lock more consistent, discard RNG would be smaller, and draw RNG would be smaller.
And I still hate the Paladin quest legendary.
@Solax: there are good addons to help you draft a good arena deck. Being proficient in arena will net you lots of dust, gold, and packs.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Essentially, Bodhisattva wants Hearthstone to be more about decision making, not just following optimal curve.
To put it historically, it's why a lot of people didn't like Secret Paladin. It's not just that Secret Paladin was strong, it was that it was low in decision making. At any given turn, the optimal move for Secret Paladin was always "play on curve". It was a deck that was easy to pilot because there was little to no thinking involved to play it, but it required a lot of thinking and/or luck to play around.
Fast forward to Mean Streets, and this culminated in the Aggro vs. Reno meta, a deck that was essentially a faster Secret Paladin vs. a deck that relied on resetting the game at turn 6. The game plan for aggro was "play on curve" and it presented the same easy to pilot, hard to play around style that made Secret Paladin so cancerous. Meanwhile, to deal with the perfect curve, Reno decks sought to disrupt the curve, since playing on curve as aggro relies on the game ending early, since your deck is not designed to possibly win with off of incremental gains like Tempo mage (which also plays similarly on curve). As such, resetting the game to essentially the start around turn 6 would throw off the curve, hence Reno decks being so prevalent.
Now the reason why RNG is being brought up is because the designs of these decks aren't relying on any particular decision from either player. Ultimately, the game degraded down to "does aggro kill before Reno is played?" which is essentially, "does aggro draw on curve?" and "is Reno drawn at all?" as one question. Both of these sub questions are draw RNG questions, since it's not about the player making a smart play, but drawing the right sequence of, or specific, card.
It's why it wasn't a fun meta. People complain about miracle rogue, but there's at least a decision that has to be made on when to pull the trigger. Good players would pull it at the right time more often than worse players, and it showed in winrate. Despite miracle rogue being powerful, the winrate could fluctuate heavily based on who was piloting it. However, there was little room to make an error while piloting aggro, with only minimally more when piloting Reno. If you made an error, it was almost always because of a bad draw rather than a bad decision.
To put it historically, it's why a lot of people didn't like Secret Paladin. It's not just that Secret Paladin was strong, it was that it was low in decision making. At any given turn, the optimal move for Secret Paladin was always "play on curve". It was a deck that was easy to pilot because there was little to no thinking involved to play it, but it required a lot of thinking and/or luck to play around.
Fast forward to Mean Streets, and this culminated in the Aggro vs. Reno meta, a deck that was essentially a faster Secret Paladin vs. a deck that relied on resetting the game at turn 6. The game plan for aggro was "play on curve" and it presented the same easy to pilot, hard to play around style that made Secret Paladin so cancerous. Meanwhile, to deal with the perfect curve, Reno decks sought to disrupt the curve, since playing on curve as aggro relies on the game ending early, since your deck is not designed to possibly win with off of incremental gains like Tempo mage (which also plays similarly on curve). As such, resetting the game to essentially the start around turn 6 would throw off the curve, hence Reno decks being so prevalent.
Now the reason why RNG is being brought up is because the designs of these decks aren't relying on any particular decision from either player. Ultimately, the game degraded down to "does aggro kill before Reno is played?" which is essentially, "does aggro draw on curve?" and "is Reno drawn at all?" as one question. Both of these sub questions are draw RNG questions, since it's not about the player making a smart play, but drawing the right sequence of, or specific, card.
It's why it wasn't a fun meta. People complain about miracle rogue, but there's at least a decision that has to be made on when to pull the trigger. Good players would pull it at the right time more often than worse players, and it showed in winrate. Despite miracle rogue being powerful, the winrate could fluctuate heavily based on who was piloting it. However, there was little room to make an error while piloting aggro, with only minimally more when piloting Reno. If you made an error, it was almost always because of a bad draw rather than a bad decision.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Traditional Handlock vs. Ramp Druid that ran FoN+SR Combo. Let's talk about that matchup.
Traditional Handlock's goal was to utilize Warlock's life tap ability to:
a) Increase your draws, which increases the consistency of drawing an answer
b) Trade your health resource for options, value, and board control
c) Utilize cards that benefit from large hand sizes
d) Utilize tech cards that benefit from countering a threat, rather than posing it's own.
Turn 1 - Zombie Chow? Mortal Coil? Coin Hero Power? Pass? All legitimate pro choices.
Turn 2 - Ancient Watcher? Mortal Coil? Dark Bomb? Hero Power? Sunfury Protector? Ironbeak Owl? Hero power pass?
Turn 3 - Coin hellfire? Mind Control Tech? Big Game Hunter? Earthenring Farseer? Sunfury protector the ancient watcher? Ironbeak owl the ancient watcher? Coin twilight drake?
Turn 4 - Twilight drake? Mountain Giant? Defender of Argus? Ancient Watcher + Sunfury? Shadowflame the Ancient Watcher?
And listen I can go on and on. There were merits to summoning a 4/10 vs. an 8/8. There were merits to summoning a 3 mana BGH on curve. There were merits to not playing Ancient Watcher on 2 even though you had it.
AND GET THIS: The opponent had decisions too!
Just in general against any handlock:
1) Do I play more cards that have 3 or less health?
2) Do I play a fourth card knowing he might have MCT?
3) Do I play around BGH, or is this a card to allow him to BGH?
4) Should I attack him or keep him out of range of playing Molten Giants until next turn?
5) How will my board interact with his upcoming sylvannas?
6) Do I kill the ancient watchers prior to a sunfury protector coming down?
7) Does he look like he runs the Combo? Do I play around that?
Right back to this match. He's playing Ramp Druid that runs FoN+SR combo
What choices does the ramp druid make in a typical game, irrespective of handlock?
1) I have innervate against an aggro deck. Should I innervate out a card that's big with taunt? What about innervating out a nourish for more crystals? What about innervating out swipe is that better?
2a) It's turn 3, I just top decked wild growth. Do I play it and float the mana? Do I play shade of naxx? If I do play naxx, when do I unstealth it?
2b) I have wrath, should I wrath for 1 and kill a bloodmage thalnos or loot hoarder early? Do I save it to kill something more impactful with 3 health later? I know those cards aren't ran in handlock.
3) It's turn 5, I have druid of the claw and azure drake. Should I play the claw? I still don't have a board clear, is drawing closer to a board clear better? Can I use Azure Drake better on a different turn with wrath?
4) It's turn 7, and I have ancient of lore. Is it better to kill off a minion with my taunt and heal my taunt? Is it better to heal face? I still have swipe in my deck, is it better to draw 2 and hope I can setup a swipe azure drake turn? What about Ancient of War? Do I play around Black Knight?
5) Is now the time to go with druid of the claw with charge and setup for lethal with the combo? What can my opponent do to prevent lethal? Is it too ambitious to swipe face? Do I need to use a FoN + SR just to clear the board? Is it possible to win if I do?
And then they fought. And it was awesome. The druid having to figure out how to wave in and out of being the offensive guy with charge minions and early face damage, and when he needs to play around board clears and hard removal. The warlock trying to figure out how best to manage his resources of board clears, when were taunts vital? Would he too play around TBK? If he used Siphon Soul on a big shade of naxx, would he have anything in the tank to play around Kel'Thuzad? Should the druid set up for a lethal despite molten giant + taunt up combo? Should he wait? How long can he afford to wait? Can the warlock ever play Jarraxus? Did he actually save coin to hero power for the jarraxus turn?
Those decks are fucking interesting! I like that shit! Those games made hearthstone awesome for me. Same with Handlock vs. Control Warrior. Same with Control Warrior and Miracle Rogue. It felt like making those choices (when to brawl, when to use the last charge of deathbite for the whirlwind effect, when to execute, should I shield slam my own sylvannas? Can I die if I spend my turn using alexstraza on him while I set up from Grom lethal? when to play gadgetzan) were difficult decisions and piloting those decks great altered their win rates. And so very rarely were you sitting there like "Well I didn't draw this card I can only put one of in my deck, so I just flat out lose" Like yeah of course it happened, and yeah of course drawing Fiery Win Axe on 2 was a big deal in matchups against like Zoo or Face Hunter. But there were still so many damn decisions.
I mean seriously - ZOO RAN CRAZED ALCHEMIST AT ONE POINT TO COUNTER DOOMSAYER. Need I fucking say more? That's beautiful.
Fibonacci is the best player to ever play Control Warrior, and he's made it work every season. He still openly admits it's just not as good as other decks. In fact, he piloted quest warrior this month.
Trump's favorite deck is Hand lock, and even after much experimentation to make it work again with the 3 mana 4/8 can't attack card, he still found the deck really unsatisfying and suboptimal.
And Firebat played ramp druid to 12-0 heroic tavern brawl, only it's not actually the type of ramp druid that made much decision. It was jade druid that ran a bunch of big taunt minions to just consume the hits of all the pirate warriors. He flat out said his strategy was queue into aggro, hope it's not rogue, if it's aggro and not rogue you win, if it's not you lose.
I think part of this has to do with lack of good neutral healing. Most of these great decks were great when people had access to Antique Healbot and Sludge Belcher. The Tar family wishes it was as good as Sludge Belcher. I'm not saying it'd be balanced to print a card like Antique Healbot nowadays because of how archetypes like Rogue have now evolved (stuff like Counterfeit Coin and Tomb Pillager). Just saying a 1 mana 2/2 that heals both for 4, while a step in the right direction, comes at all the wrong time.
Traditional Handlock's goal was to utilize Warlock's life tap ability to:
a) Increase your draws, which increases the consistency of drawing an answer
b) Trade your health resource for options, value, and board control
c) Utilize cards that benefit from large hand sizes
d) Utilize tech cards that benefit from countering a threat, rather than posing it's own.
Turn 1 - Zombie Chow? Mortal Coil? Coin Hero Power? Pass? All legitimate pro choices.
Turn 2 - Ancient Watcher? Mortal Coil? Dark Bomb? Hero Power? Sunfury Protector? Ironbeak Owl? Hero power pass?
Turn 3 - Coin hellfire? Mind Control Tech? Big Game Hunter? Earthenring Farseer? Sunfury protector the ancient watcher? Ironbeak owl the ancient watcher? Coin twilight drake?
Turn 4 - Twilight drake? Mountain Giant? Defender of Argus? Ancient Watcher + Sunfury? Shadowflame the Ancient Watcher?
And listen I can go on and on. There were merits to summoning a 4/10 vs. an 8/8. There were merits to summoning a 3 mana BGH on curve. There were merits to not playing Ancient Watcher on 2 even though you had it.
AND GET THIS: The opponent had decisions too!
Just in general against any handlock:
1) Do I play more cards that have 3 or less health?
2) Do I play a fourth card knowing he might have MCT?
3) Do I play around BGH, or is this a card to allow him to BGH?
4) Should I attack him or keep him out of range of playing Molten Giants until next turn?
5) How will my board interact with his upcoming sylvannas?
6) Do I kill the ancient watchers prior to a sunfury protector coming down?
7) Does he look like he runs the Combo? Do I play around that?
Right back to this match. He's playing Ramp Druid that runs FoN+SR combo
What choices does the ramp druid make in a typical game, irrespective of handlock?
1) I have innervate against an aggro deck. Should I innervate out a card that's big with taunt? What about innervating out a nourish for more crystals? What about innervating out swipe is that better?
2a) It's turn 3, I just top decked wild growth. Do I play it and float the mana? Do I play shade of naxx? If I do play naxx, when do I unstealth it?
2b) I have wrath, should I wrath for 1 and kill a bloodmage thalnos or loot hoarder early? Do I save it to kill something more impactful with 3 health later? I know those cards aren't ran in handlock.
3) It's turn 5, I have druid of the claw and azure drake. Should I play the claw? I still don't have a board clear, is drawing closer to a board clear better? Can I use Azure Drake better on a different turn with wrath?
4) It's turn 7, and I have ancient of lore. Is it better to kill off a minion with my taunt and heal my taunt? Is it better to heal face? I still have swipe in my deck, is it better to draw 2 and hope I can setup a swipe azure drake turn? What about Ancient of War? Do I play around Black Knight?
5) Is now the time to go with druid of the claw with charge and setup for lethal with the combo? What can my opponent do to prevent lethal? Is it too ambitious to swipe face? Do I need to use a FoN + SR just to clear the board? Is it possible to win if I do?
And then they fought. And it was awesome. The druid having to figure out how to wave in and out of being the offensive guy with charge minions and early face damage, and when he needs to play around board clears and hard removal. The warlock trying to figure out how best to manage his resources of board clears, when were taunts vital? Would he too play around TBK? If he used Siphon Soul on a big shade of naxx, would he have anything in the tank to play around Kel'Thuzad? Should the druid set up for a lethal despite molten giant + taunt up combo? Should he wait? How long can he afford to wait? Can the warlock ever play Jarraxus? Did he actually save coin to hero power for the jarraxus turn?
Those decks are fucking interesting! I like that shit! Those games made hearthstone awesome for me. Same with Handlock vs. Control Warrior. Same with Control Warrior and Miracle Rogue. It felt like making those choices (when to brawl, when to use the last charge of deathbite for the whirlwind effect, when to execute, should I shield slam my own sylvannas? Can I die if I spend my turn using alexstraza on him while I set up from Grom lethal? when to play gadgetzan) were difficult decisions and piloting those decks great altered their win rates. And so very rarely were you sitting there like "Well I didn't draw this card I can only put one of in my deck, so I just flat out lose" Like yeah of course it happened, and yeah of course drawing Fiery Win Axe on 2 was a big deal in matchups against like Zoo or Face Hunter. But there were still so many damn decisions.
I mean seriously - ZOO RAN CRAZED ALCHEMIST AT ONE POINT TO COUNTER DOOMSAYER. Need I fucking say more? That's beautiful.
Fibonacci is the best player to ever play Control Warrior, and he's made it work every season. He still openly admits it's just not as good as other decks. In fact, he piloted quest warrior this month.
Trump's favorite deck is Hand lock, and even after much experimentation to make it work again with the 3 mana 4/8 can't attack card, he still found the deck really unsatisfying and suboptimal.
And Firebat played ramp druid to 12-0 heroic tavern brawl, only it's not actually the type of ramp druid that made much decision. It was jade druid that ran a bunch of big taunt minions to just consume the hits of all the pirate warriors. He flat out said his strategy was queue into aggro, hope it's not rogue, if it's aggro and not rogue you win, if it's not you lose.
I think part of this has to do with lack of good neutral healing. Most of these great decks were great when people had access to Antique Healbot and Sludge Belcher. The Tar family wishes it was as good as Sludge Belcher. I'm not saying it'd be balanced to print a card like Antique Healbot nowadays because of how archetypes like Rogue have now evolved (stuff like Counterfeit Coin and Tomb Pillager). Just saying a 1 mana 2/2 that heals both for 4, while a step in the right direction, comes at all the wrong time.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; Apr 19, 2017 at 03:01 AM.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Just crafted the cards for Quest Warrior and omg i'm in love with it. Went from rank 13 with 3 stars on a 12 wins winstreak to rank 8 with 1 star so far. This deck destroys anything, zoo, quest rogue (yes it fucking rapes it), quest mage/any other mage, control paly/mid range paly, mid range hunter, quest priest and also in mirror matches i won pretty easy. This deck is sweet so far, will comeback 'til the end of the season with the final results.
EDIT: Nearly got rank 6, stoped at rank 7 with 5 stars, but won't give up here.
EDIT 2: Got rank 5 with 2 stars.
EDIT 3: Rank 4 now.
EDIT: Nearly got rank 6, stoped at rank 7 with 5 stars, but won't give up here.
EDIT 2: Got rank 5 with 2 stars.
EDIT 3: Rank 4 now.
Last edited by azzeffir23; Apr 24, 2017 at 03:44 PM.
I've had some crushing results against taunt warrior with some luck and teched cards. Problem is it can drastically suffer against other decks because of techs. :c hard to find balance.
Addicted-re 07-16
24/07/2019. I'll find you again my friend.
