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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #21
•SmallBowl
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Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
There are several problems with these arguments.

First, "identifying" as transgender does not make you transgender under the law. You have to be confirmed by a medical professional to identify as transgender, and not just faking it. So the bar to become transgender is stacked against you if you're trying to fake the classification, since a respectable medical professional will shut down your request to be classified as transgender. To classify somebody as transgender willingly with knowledge that they are not transgender is illegal, unethical, grounds to lose your license to practice, and leaves you subject to prosecution.

And how does the medical professional tell the difference between the 2? Its from what the person tells him, not from telltale physical signs

Second, to make this clear because it seems you don't understand this, transgender is a term about what gender you identify as, not what your biological sex is, or you sexual orientation. Transgenders may undergo gender reassignment, but the degree of which they undergo the treatment is varied. Not all will change their biological sex in the process, and many will not undergo the treatment at all and just cross dress. Some are gay, some are straight, some are bi. Point is, it's not tied to their perceived gender.

I do understand that. I dont see what part of my post this was supposed to refer to

Third, you see problems with transgender people who are using their reassignment as an excuse to do things with the other sex, I see a much more common problem that arises where transgender people are mistaken for the opposite sex when they're forced to use facilities for their birth sex. When a transgender woman is forced to enter a men's bathroom, or a transgender man is forced to enter a women's bathroom, there is a LOT of confusion that can arise that will result in harassment of the transgender person. Police are more likely to be called if a person who looks like a male enters a women's bathroom, or a person who looks like a female enters a men's bathroom.

If the person has undergone gender reassignment surgery and clearly has features of the other sex then I dont have a problem with it. The problem is when with no proof whaysoever anyone can walk into either sex of bathroom as they please. Not all transgender people have undergone gender reassignment surgery.

Fourth, it doesn't matter if somebody is transgender and commits a crime, even peeping on women or men in the bathroom. Reason being? It's irrelevant that they're transgender, a crime is a crime regardless of your identification. A regular person who cross dresses can accomplish the exact same level of "concealment" that everyone is worried the transgender label will be used for, and it's easier to accomplish since it doesn't require medical confirmation. It literally makes no sense to be afraid of transgenders using their identification as a gender to commit crimes, because gender is irrelevant when a crime is committed. A male peeking on a female in a bathroom stall is the exact same crime if it's a woman peeking, or a trans person peeking, or if it's a man being peeked on. Being trans is not a get out of jail free card. Prohibiting a trans person from using a bathroom they identify with will not stop people who want to commit this crime from committing it, and allowing them to use the bathroom is not a green light for them to commit a crime.

Since Im using my phone I cant verify what I said in my last post but I highly doubt I said that transgender people would be commiting the crime. The point is that anyone can enter either bathroom so if he so wanted a male non-transgender peep could go into the womens bathroom

Finally, why would meeting a lower test standard be a concern? If you're willing to accept a person into the army with lower physical standards to begin with, why is it fine if a woman can only meet the lower standards and still be allowed to serve in the same capacity as a male, yet a transgender woman can't? If that's your concern, then it would make more sense to push for standardized requirements across all genders and either raise the requirements for women to men's, or lower men's to women's.

I dont kmow how the tests work or what doing well or badly in the would result in. But if a transgender woman gets a load of benefits because they did really well for a regular woman or a transgender man has sanctions because they couldnt keep up with the other men that doesnt sit right with me. Theyre there for a reason, and whatever that reason may be its important that people are held to the correct standard

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #22
+Wicked
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Christ, dude. You haven't read this thread have you? You at least certainly haven't read my exchange with Bodhisattva. You should read that.


1. Google 'body dysmorphia' and understand that isn't just caused by 'oppression' and is a genuine psychological disorder

Please find me evidence that all transgender people suffer from crippling anxiety over small imperfections in their image, and weren't simply unhappy with their gender.

I cannot be more clear. Do you understand now?
No. Because you didn't answer my question at all. Why do you regard "a decent amount of trans" as mentally unstable? Because as we've established, body dysmorphic discorder is an anxiety disorder that can affect anyone of any gender. There is no evidence to suggest that being trans is based on a disorder. It is based on being unhappy with your gender, to suggest that it always has to come with a huge dose of anxiety disorder is really, really silly.

I'm just confused as to why you seem to think that trans and body dysmorphic disorder are the same thing?

big 


https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ental-disorder

I'm just being devil's advocate here.

Last edited by Wicked; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:35 PM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #23
Oracle
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
And how does the medical professional tell the difference between the 2? Its from what the person tells him, not from telltale physical signs

The same way any other mental condition is diagnosed. These tests are designed in such a way to weed out people who are faking, since fakers respond differently to the tests than people who are genuinely transgender. Every test used to diagnose a mental condition has questions inserted to deliberately try to catch somebody who is faking, or have underwent some amount of statistical analysis to determine what is accurate to the transgender population's responses. Fakers typically either don't know what transgender entails, so give false results, or they over represent being transgender where it becomes clear that, at the very least, they're seeking some form of attention or response by overstating their situation.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
I do understand that. I dont see what part of my post this was supposed to refer to

You post the story that a prisoner who is a transgender woman was having sex in a woman's prison. You say this like it's the fault that they're transgender, when the actual issue is they're biologically still male and heterosexual. They're not synonymous, but you're presenting it in a way as if they are.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
If the person has undergone gender reassignment surgery and clearly has features of the other sex then I dont have a problem with it. The problem is when with no proof whaysoever anyone can walk into either sex of bathroom as they please. Not all transgender people have undergone gender reassignment surgery.

Except there's no way to check without violating somebody's rights, and enforcing gendered bathrooms would still require violating somebody's rights. It's not hard to understand why.

First situation, a person who tries to enter a bathroom which they don't appear to be the gender for. You need to present evidence that it's the right bathroom? According to you, it appears having features of the other sex is required. The only way this can be checked is inspecting their genitals. It should be very obvious now that anybody can now abuse this and call out anybody and force them to display their genitals if they want to use a bathroom under a "suspicion" they're transgender.

Second situation, transgender people are forced to use their biological sex bathroom. OK, if they're a transgender woman, but have male genitalia, they'll be forced to enter the male bathroom. But then it happens against where somebody doesn't look like they're entering the right gender bathroom. And the only way to check is revealing genitalia. The same violation of rights arises again.

Literally, it's unenforceable without violating somebody's rights, and it ignores the fact that nothing stops somebody from entering the other gender's bathroom anyways other than the fact it's a crime to do so with any malicious intent. Which already is enforced, so adding a transgender condition on top of it is just double jeopardy.

And nobody needs proof to enter a bathroom right now anyways, so it doesn't stop a cross dresser from getting it anyways. The same problem arises where it's has nothing to do with the gender, and it has everything to do with people assuming that it will be used as an excuse to commit a crime.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
Since Im using my phone I cant verify what I said in my last post but I highly doubt I said that transgender people would be commiting the crime. The point is that anyone can enter either bathroom so if he so wanted a male non-transgender peep could go into the womens bathroom

Except that's ALREADY A CRIME. If you get caught peeping on ANYBODY, saying "oh, I'm transgender it's fine" will do nothing. Nothing stops somebody from doing it already except for the threat of prosecution, which already exists.

Furthermore, this still brings up the problem of this:


That's a transgender man being forced to use the women's bathroom. THIS is going to cause more problems on average because people like this are going to have the cops called on them for being transgender despite using the "right" bathroom.

Further, the fear of a male saying they're a transgender woman and using the woman's bathroom is not avoided because now they can just say they're a transgender man and use the woman's bathroom, and it's functionally the same outcome.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
I dont kmow how the tests work or what doing well or badly in the would result in. But if a transgender woman gets a load of benefits because they did really well for a regular woman or a transgender man has sanctions because they couldnt keep up with the other men that doesnt sit right with me. Theyre there for a reason, and whatever that reason may be its important that people are held to the correct standard

You don't get extra benefits from performing well in your PT. The PT is just a pass or fail. You fail, you don't get in. You pass, you get in. There's functionally no difference between passing the PT as a male or female, other than the fact that the female has it easier passing the test. As such, there's literally no reason that either gender, let alone transgenders, should be held to different standards if they're still expected to serve in similar capacity.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #24
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
I'm just confused as to why you seem to think that trans and body dysmorphic disorder are the same thing?

big 


https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ental-disorder

I'm just being devil's advocate here.

Before I start, just a bit of discussion etiquette, don't respond to stuff inside quote tags, it's difficult to quote the things you type when you do that. I'm a wizard tho, so I'll quote it anyways.
Originally Posted by Wicked
Please find me evidence that all transgender people suffer from crippling anxiety over small imperfections in their image, and weren't simply unhappy with their gender.
I'm just confused as to why you seem to think that trans and body dysmorphic disorder are the same thing?

When you look down, as a trans man wanting to be a female, and you see your massive cock and you feel and think to yourself 'this is not a part of my body', that is body dysmorphia.. That said, the severity of the dysmorphia does differ from transgenders to transexuals, this an important distinction.
Originally Posted by Wicked
No. Because you didn't answer my question at all. Why do you regard "a decent amount of trans" as mentally unstable?

If you read my posts in this thread, you would've seen the link to the study which showed that over 40% of transgender people try killing themselves before they're 25. I think suicidal tendencies are a good indicator of poor mental health, don't you? I'd also say 40% is a decent amount.
Originally Posted by Wicked
Because as we've established, body dysmorphic discorder is an anxiety disorder that can affect anyone of any gender.

Yes? So? There's many forms of body dysmorphia that affects all sorts of people. Anorexia is one. I never said body dysmorphia was a solely trans phenomenon..

Do I need to continue? Do I need to keep proving that I'm not bigoted and my thoughts are based in reason?

I'm gonna try one last time to lay this out. I'm not against trans in the military. I'm against suicidal people in the military. The psych tests that determine whether or not the military accepts you checks your level of mental health, and if your mental health is poor you will not be accepted, regardless of your identity (doesn't matter if your trans, black, gay or a woman).

Only mentally unstable people don't get in. Mentally stable trans people are A-OK, so long as their medication/supplementation schedule wouldn't be disruptive and appropriate (just like everyone else).

I'm not proposing we treat them any differently at all. That might also be a clue that I'm not bigoted. I'm proposing we treat them exactly the same as we treat everyone else.

Last edited by Ele; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:10 AM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #25
$abxy
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Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
These are legitimate concerns however simple measures can be put in place to accommodate for transgender people.

A lot of the "fixes" you offered can easily lead to rape, sexual harassment, etc.
-----
Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
There is no reason why transgender people can't be given a place in the army, so that comparison is dumb. Colourblind people maybe can't fly planes because they can't see the bright lights on aerial towers or something. The only arguments people make against transgender people in the army are fiscal ones, like "Wehhh, it'll cost too much money." Or "Wehhh, we'll have to make some slight changes in how we do things."

The military is a fucking fighting force. We're being trained to eliminate our enemy. Not how to make someone feel comfortable and spend unnecessary money on them because it's "always been a dream of theirs to fight for their country."
:)

Last edited by abxy; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:20 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #26
Cassh
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@wicked Your little article could be about anything and honestly it looks like it was made by a stupid person dealing with insecurity. You talk to any girl in the 7th grade and she'll be insecure about her breast, you talk to any boy 14 and up about puberty and watch them do whatever is in there power to change the subject - insecurity is a whole different problem not liking your body is a whole different problem being mentally unstable is a problem - you start trying to coin terms for your problems that you've individualized because you push people away and alienate yourself because "no one is physically like you - thats mental retardation. I honestly think alot of trans people have never had anyone tell them no and thats the problem here. its a fucking army dude.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #27
Oracle
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Originally Posted by abxy View Post
The military is a fucking fighting force. We're being trained to eliminate our enemy. Not how to make someone feel comfortable and spend unnecessary money on them because it's "always been a dream of theirs to fight for their country."

The costs of providing services for transgender service members would cost the U.S. government somewhere between $2 to $9 million annually.

The military spends $84 million a year on erectile dysfunction medication.

It makes more fiscal sense to stop giving soldiers boner pills than to stop accepting transgender soldiers.

Also, keep in mind that the annual budget for the U.S. military was $582.7 billion annually in 2016. The higher estimate on fully funding transgender services for U.S. military personnel would take up around 0.0015% of the annual budget. It's literally pennies to them. If the goal truly is saving money, this is one of the least effective ways to truly trim fat from the system. Significantly more money could be saved by reevaluating costly military contracts to develop new vehicles for the armed forces, since there are many that have run over budget, pushed deadlines, and have failed to return on investment, yet are still renewed because of sunk cost fallacies.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #28
+Wicked
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Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
@wicked Your little article could be about anything and honestly it looks like it was made by a stupid person dealing with insecurity. You talk to any girl in the 7th grade and she'll be insecure about her breast, you talk to any boy 14 and up about puberty and watch them do whatever is in there power to change the subject - insecurity is a whole different problem not liking your body is a whole different problem being mentally unstable is a problem - you start trying to coin terms for your problems that you've individualized because you push people away and alienate yourself because "no one is physically like you - thats mental retardation. I honestly think alot of trans people have never had anyone tell them no and thats the problem here. its a fucking army dude.

Well, first. I don't know how you can call me a stupid person when you've literally posted some unintelligible garbage here in the past that I can barely read. And second, I didn't understand this post either. I'm not a transvestite, and so I'm not insecure about this topic, if that's what you're implying? I also think I understand that you're trying to say something about body images and mental retardation? I'm sorry. I really need a translator.

@Ele: Fair enough. You're better at this discussion stuff than I am.

@Abxy: Oracle already said most of what I think, however I'd just like to let you know that you are incredibly insensitive if that comment is anything to go by. It's alright to deny someone who's "dream of theirs is to fight for their country." just because it would cost money? It's not even a lot of money in comparison to other ridiculous expenditure by the US Govt.
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