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Old Dec 4, 2016   #41
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Mallymkun
Since you focused on the 13th week, let's have a look at what's developed by this point...

- The fetus reaches a length of about 15 cm (6 inches).
- A fine hair called lanugo develops on the head.
- Fetal skin is almost transparent.
- More muscle tissue and bones have developed, and the bones become harder.
- The fetus makes active movements.
- Sucking motions are made with the mouth.
- Meconium is made in the intestinal tract.
- The liver and pancreas produce fluid secretions.
- From week 13, sex prediction by obstetric ultrasonography is almost 100% accurate.

All of those developments mean nothing. The fetus doesn't feel pain until after the 20th week and it doesn't even acquire consciousness until well into the 3rd trimester. A non-thinking, non-pain feeling lifeform - Like a lobster. We put lobsters through the holocaust - burning them to death over flames. I think those fetuses can handle an abortion.


Originally Posted by Mallymkun
My opinion on sex has always been that it is purely for procreational purposes. At some point we decided that pleasure and satisfaction are more important than responsibility...

Thus, the pill is simply a replacement for morality and responsibility. If you think that's okay, as you clearly do, then you are inevitably saying that the destruction of human life is okay. If you are comfortable with that fact, then it should raise all sorts of questions...

Having sexual intercourse and not worrying about the possible result is a common problem nowadays because of the massive propaganda and sexual revolution that has grown ever since the demise of Christianity.

Jesus Christ! Who gives a shit. You're defending your stance from the position that it's an affront to your Christian values. What you don't get is that it's not a very Christian thing to enforce your values on other people and tell other people how to live.

If you're the type of person to vote for abortion to be illegal then what you are is just selfish and egocentric - Attempting to take away the sovereignty that women have over their bodies like that..

You're young, don't continue down this line of thinking as you get older. Give women a bit of goddang respect.


Last edited by Ele; Dec 4, 2016 at 03:10 PM..
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Old Dec 4, 2016   #42
Mallymkun
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
All of those developments mean nothing. The fetus doesn't feel pain until after the 20th week and it doesn't even acquire consciousness until well into the 3rd trimester. A non-thinking, non-pain feeling lifeform - Like a lobster. We put lobsters through the holocaust - burning them to death over flames. I think those fetuses can handle an abortion.

If you deem pain to be the main veto over what we cannot kill, then why are animals an exception, or is it just because animals aren't human? If that's the case, then why is the fetus being human not enough for its deserved existence? Please answer this.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Jesus Christ! Who gives a shit. You're defending your stance from the position that it's an affront to your Christian values. What you don't get is that it's not a very Christian thing to enforce your values on other people and tell other people how to live.

Most western countries were founded on Christian values, something people, such as yourself, take for granted. I'm not particularly religious, though I'm sensible enough to recognise that the western world is a lot more tolerant place than many other societies elsewhere in the world. Telling/forcing someone how to behave, if their behaviour threatens another person, is an acceptable part of society. We established that a long, long time ago. Are you against coercion altogether, then?

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
If you're the type of person to vote for abortion to be illegal then what you are is just selfish and egocentric - Attempting to take away the sovereignty that women have over their bodies like that..

You're young, don't continue down this line of thinking as you get older. Give women a bit of goddang respect.


Once again, absolute bollocks.

-
EDIT: By the way, your avatar disagrees with you.


Last edited by Mallymkun; Dec 4, 2016 at 04:13 PM..
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Old Dec 4, 2016   #43
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
If you deem pain to be the main veto over what we cannot kill, then why are animals an exception, or is it just because animals aren't human? If that's the case, then why is the fetus being human not enough for its deserved existence? Please answer this.

Pain as main veto? Are you just deciding to selectively ignore the whole consciousness part of what I said? Animals aren't an exception. That was my entire point about the entire lobster holocaust example. Christ..

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
Most western countries were founded on Christian values, something people, such as yourself, take for granted. I'm not particularly religious, though I'm sensible enough to recognise that the western world is a lot more tolerant place than many other societies elsewhere in the world. Telling/forcing someone how to behave, if their behaviour threatens another person, is an acceptable part of society. We established that a long, long time ago. Are you against coercion altogether, then?

We don't need bullshit organised religion to be moral. We don't have to adopt Christian values, all we need are humanist values. We especially don't have to adopt the backwards bullshit Christian values - Take for example that whole Africa aids condom fiasco. There's parts of Christianity that are yet to modernise, much like Islam. Luckily the majority of your generation disagree with you are are abandoning this sort of narrow-minded crap.
---
Lol, Milo says a lot of stupid stuff to ingratiate himself with Republicans. He's a self-interested lil' rat, like Littlefinger. So what?

Last edited by Ele; Dec 4, 2016 at 04:17 PM..
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Old Dec 4, 2016   #44
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Pain as main veto? Are you just deciding to selectively ignore the whole consciousness part of what I said? Animals aren't an exception. That was my entire point about the entire lobster holocaust example. Christ..

Okay, Ele. I've tried to get you to clarify your position and you're still making it hard for me. You're playing around with words and terms that you don't even understand. The 3rd trimester begins in week 28. Consciousness, in its most basic form, is being aware and responsive to your surroundings. We know for a fact that babies can hear their mother's voice around week 16, that babies start moving around week 13, but the mother doesn't feel kicking until around week 16/17, etc. If that's not consciousness, then please define it for me because I'd really like to know.

Animals like pigs and cows have both consciousness and the ability to feel pain, so are you a vegetarian? Can you honestly say that you believe in what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
We don't need bullshit organised religion to be moral. We don't have to adopt Christian values, all we need are humanist values. We especially don't have to adopt the backwards bullshit Christian values - Take for example that whole Africa aids condom fiasco. There's parts of Christianity that are yet to modernise, much like Islam. Luckily the majority of your generation disagree with you are are abandoning this sort of narrow-minded crap.

In a society, it is my belief, which is heavily backed by historical records, that a Christian moral code is vital to sustaining a moral society. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery; these are all extremely important values. A humanist society wouldn't last very long, in my view.
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Old Dec 4, 2016   #45
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
Okay, Ele. I've tried to get you to clarify your position and you're still making it hard for me. You're playing around with words and terms that you don't even understand. The 3rd trimester begins in week 28. Consciousness, in its most basic form, is being aware and responsive to your surroundings. We know for a fact that babies can hear their mother's voice around week 16, that babies start moving around week 13, but the mother doesn't feel kicking until around week 16/17, etc. If that's not consciousness, then please define it for me because I'd really like to know.

http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v65...pr200950a.html
"However, these reactions are probably preprogrammed and have a subcortical nonconscious origin. Furthermore, the fetus is almost continuously asleep and unconscious partially due to endogenous sedation."
Yeah, not really conscious that early bruv.

Read further into the article and you'll find the consciousness pathways don't become connected until the 34th week - Well into the 3rd trimester as I said. Also, apparently pain doesn't register until the 29th-30th, so I lowballed it earlier.

So why can't we abort this non-feeling, non-conscious lobster thingos below the 13th week? We could certainly extend the deadline beyond the 13th week and still be A-OK.

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
In a society, it is my belief, which is heavily backed by historical records, that a Christian moral code is vital to sustaining a moral society. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery; these are all extremely important values. A humanist society wouldn't last very long, in my view.

You're hilarious (and obviously don't know shit about humanism and what it is). You don't have any deeply formed view on why a humanist society wouldn't last very long, you're just being reactive and contrary. You oughta stop that, it's ugly.

Last edited by Ele; Dec 4, 2016 at 05:32 PM..
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Old Dec 4, 2016   #46
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v65...pr200950a.html
"However, these reactions are probably preprogrammed and have a subcortical nonconscious origin. Furthermore, the fetus is almost continuously asleep and unconscious partially due to endogenous sedation."
Yeah, not really conscious that early bruv.

Fuck is this shit? First off, what kind of study uses the word "probably"? Secondly, in the conclusion it makes a distinction between "basic or minimal consciousness" and "adult consciousness".

It even states that the ex utero (infant out of the uterus) "may open its eyes and establish a minimal eye contact with its mother", yet "it has reached only a lower level of minimal consciousness analogous (though, of course, not identical) to that of a rat/mouse". Even out of the uterus, the infant still displays what they refer to as 'minimal consciousness', so by that token you can still kill the thing in your view, right?

You also avoided the vegetarian question for obvious reasons and are willing to divert the topic to humanism.
-

EDIT: You set the criteria, buddy. A newborn infant has neither of the things you stated that are needed to secure a right to life, so how about you put this topic to bed and state that you support the killing of newborn babies because they're not fully conscious. Just be honest; the study sure is:

"The preterm infant, ex utero, may open its eyes and establish minimal eye contact with its mother. It also shows avoidance reactions to harmful stimuli. However, the thalamocortical connections are not yet fully established, which is why it can only reach a minimal level of consciousness."

Jesus fucking christ.

Last edited by Mallymkun; Dec 4, 2016 at 06:04 PM..
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Old Jul 21, 2017   #47
Sc1ence01
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In my opinion, abortion should be legal. Especially if:

1. The girl/woman is raped: For obvious reasons. The child might just give a worse psychological trauma to the girl.

2. If they are not capable of raising the child and providing his/her basic needs: Simple, I'd rather kill a fetus while it still haven't seen the cruel world, than see a child dying from hunger.

Besides, we have no right to tell a woman what to do with her uterus.
If its not your uterus then just stop.
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