people playing: 41, servers online: 17, games played: 136,876,414 Top Player: Savior4

  Toribash Community » General » Discussion
Register FAQ General Rules Community
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jul 10, 2017   #11
+Ele
Community Manbanger
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,292
Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by cowmeat View Post
Well your point in all of your posts has been.

"women generally just don't want to be in the most respect positions in our society, it has nothing to with societal pressures or expectations"


I don't think I need to say much more here.
You are being very "Woke" indeed.

Nope. That's not my position at all, and you know it. That's just your trivialisation of my position, purposely ignoring all nuance. Who you tryna fool here?

You know well what my position is, you just cbf thinking up a counter-argument. So you just trivialised my position, threw some shade and gave up... I thought you were better than that.
---
Creati0n, I'll ask that you leave his deleted post in this reply. Please and thank-you.

undeleted it for tidiness ~Creati0n

Last edited by Creati0n; Jul 10, 2017 at 08:45 AM..
Ele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #12
cowmeat
Forumite
 
Master Belt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,689
Clan: Alpha



Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Nope. That's not my position at all, and you know it. That's just your trivialisation of my position, purposely ignoring all nuance. Who you tryna fool here?

You know well what my position is, you just cbf thinking up a counter-argument. So you just trivialised my position, threw some shade and gave up... I thought you were better than that.

I literally don't know your position other than what you are saying. You are saying societal pressures and expectations dont matter or create inequalities in our society as a whole aren't you?
cowmeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #13
+Ele
Community Manbanger
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,292
Clan: Parrot



No. I said societal pressures (wrt sex roles) don't hold as much stock now verses how they used to. No girl is being told they have to become a housewife.
Ele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #14
cowmeat
Forumite
 
Master Belt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,689
Clan: Alpha



Originally Posted by Ele View Post
No. I said societal pressures don't hold as much stock now verses how they used to.

Yes, most certainly true. Does that then mean because it's (pressure and expectations created from sex roles) not as strong as it used to be, it cannot create inequalities in our society?
And if it can what are you arguing about?

You are basically saying "because there is no hard barrier preventing thing X. Thing X is equally achievable to everyone"
What I am saying and what you are arguing against is my statement that societal expectations create soft barriers that make it harder for women to succeed in certain positions.

Last edited by cowmeat; Jul 10, 2017 at 08:51 AM..
cowmeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #15
+Ele
Community Manbanger
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,292
Clan: Parrot



No, it means that this pressure is less pressuring though - So much so, that I believe the unconscious biological pressures are more influential than those of society.

Also, I'd say that in the workplace, if there ever was any type of sexual discrimination going on, that would get stopped extremely quickly and the perpetrators fired just as quick. Modern (we might also say Western) companies/govts don't tolerate any actual displays of sexual discrimination.

Last edited by Ele; Jul 10, 2017 at 08:54 AM..
Ele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #16
cowmeat
Forumite
 
Master Belt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,689
Clan: Alpha



Originally Posted by Ele View Post
No, it means that this pressure is less pressuring though - So much so, that I believe the unconscious biological pressures are more influential than those of society.

So now you are accepting that there are pressures on different genders, making it somewhat harder to do some things that our society sees as out of the gender norms?
Well why are you arguing against me then? I never said that it's a massive wall of impossibility or the most important factor in gender differences.
cowmeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #17
+Ele
Community Manbanger
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,292
Clan: Parrot



As I edited in my previous post, I see these societal pressures as present, but currently not very influential.

As for why we're arguing, miscommunication. We both though each others positions were more exclusionary than they actually were (I thought you fully poo-pooed biology, you thought I fully poo-pooed societal pressures).

But, through the magic of discussion and perseverance, we've battled past all this ego and lingual fog to reach a mutual understanding and acceptance.

Glory to communication!

Last edited by Ele; Jul 10, 2017 at 09:13 AM..
Ele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #18
SmallBowl
Better than Viddah
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,319
Clan: Parrot



Womens brains and mens brains are different, one has more grey matter one has more white matter, they have different amounts of different hormones. Tbem acting differently and making different choices isnt discrimination.

e.g.Qualities required in a successful business leader include confidence and risk taking, the hormone testosrerone is known to make people feel confident and take risks. As a result people with more testosterone may be more likely to become a CEO than people with less or none.

Of course biology is more complicated than just testosterone and there are other hormonal and mental differences at play, but the biology of males and females are different so finding different numbers of each in each profession should not come as a surprise.

There are less high paid male fashion designers than women, are men discriminated against in this field?




As for your women are in an equivalent position to african anericans in the 50s/60s analogy, in this time period segregation was commonplace and black people were expected to bow to the whim of white people e.g. give up your seat on the bus (Rosa Parks) in addition voting registrars had the power on their own to deny someone the right to vote based on the colour of their skin. In comparison, its often complained now that women are treated better than men in court, the aforementioned problems faced by black people are not faced by women now, unless you have some counter examples to bacl up what you said.
-----
I also agree with what Ele said about societal pressures, gender stereotypes can have a huge effect on a person but they dont necessarily - I also dont see any teachers or parents telling girls they cant become a CEO because of their gender (infact it seems like the kind of topic a news story would be made about if it happened).
[sigpic][/sigpic]
[11:49.10] <Scorp> i wish they would ban the chinese
Please note, this quote was not taken out of context

Last edited by SmallBowl; Jul 10, 2017 at 02:45 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
SmallBowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #19
Oracle
Chatterbox
 
8th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,649
Clan: [T]



Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
e.g.Qualities required in a successful business leader include confidence and risk taking, the hormone testosrerone is known to make people feel confident and take risks. As a result people with more testosterone may be more likely to become a CEO than people with less or none.

This is assuming risk taking is somehow a beneficial trait for business. While there's a time and place for risk taking, it's not an all important business skill. Successful businesses survive because of a combination of risk taking and risk management. Risk taking is only really necessary during the early stages of a business, and during periods of large market shifts. Risk management is more valuable when a company is large and long-standing, since stability is more valuable at that point than rapid growth. Yet long-running companies still typically have male CEOs, despite testosterone encouraging risk taking and males producing more testosterone than women. From a purely biological standpoint, this is the worst possible gender to pick from for the role.

No matter how I look at this statement, it looks like a modern reinterpretation of "this is a man's job". Risk taking and confidence are not binary traits determined easily by chemical levels, and can be fostered in the correct environment. Neither is risk taking or confidence required to be exceptionally high to be successful as a CEO. It looks more like the role is being labeled to fit a certain piece.

Studies even say that women either perform evenly, maybe even better than male counterparts when in leadership roles within business. While the sample size is small, it does beg the question of whether environmental factors, such as this assumption that males are better at business than women, push females away from pursuing an otherwise successful career in business. While it's not systemic discrimination, it is societal predisposition that functionally achieves the same result.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
Of course biology is more complicated than just testosterone and there are other hormonal and mental differences at play, but the biology of males and females are different so finding different numbers of each in each profession should not come as a surprise.

But to write it all off as biological is a pretty big stretch. Women perform about equally to men in mathematics, yet they're underrepresented in STEM jobs, fields that emphasize strong math skills. Biologically, males and females seem about equal in learning math, yet representation heavily skews to favor males. What biologically would be causing this? People would have said something along the lines of "well females are more compassionate so they likely go to more service related jobs" which seems more like another example of tailoring the hole to the puzzle piece again. Why would being compassionate be a reason a woman avoids a STEM job? You can use compassion in STEM fields just as much as any other field. Again, it seems like societal influence pushes women into certain fields because of preconceived notions.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
There are less high paid male fashion designers than women, are men discriminated against in this field?

I actually looked into this, and this is false. The world of fashion is a man's world, with only around 40% of top fashion designers being women. So no, men are not discriminated against in this field, this is you discriminating against the field by assuming it's a woman's field.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
I also agree with what Ele said about societal pressures, gender stereotypes can have a huge effect on a person but they dont necessarily - I also dont see any teachers or parents telling girls they cant become a CEO because of their gender (infact it seems like the kind of topic a news story would be made about if it happened).

It's less what they say you can't be, and more what they say you can be. Because of these aforementioned gender roles that society still perpetuates, the jobs children are pushed towards are different. There's been an improvement in recent years, but you'll still see that there's a gender divide even as children between jobs, and a lot of it seems to be based around gender stereotypes. Boys are more likely to want to grow up to be athletes, firefighters, astronauts etc. etc. while girls are more likely to want to grow up to be doctors, teachers, scientists, and chefs/bakers. It's also worth noting that, despite more girls wanting to be doctors, there's twice as many male doctors compared to female doctors in America. And female doctors performing, on average, better than male counterparts.


Basically, biology should be playing a minuscule amount in representation within a field. All genders are equally qualified, it just appears that the societal narrative steers genders into different fields.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Oracle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10, 2017   #20
SmallBowl
Better than Viddah
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,319
Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
This is assuming risk taking is somehow a beneficial trait for business. While there's a time and place for risk taking, it's not an all important business skill. Successful businesses survive because of a combination of risk taking and risk management. Risk taking is only really necessary during the early stages of a business, and during periods of large market shifts. Risk management is more valuable when a company is large and long-standing, since stability is more valuable at that point than rapid growth. Yet long-running companies still typically have male CEOs, despite testosterone encouraging risk taking and males producing more testosterone than women. From a purely biological standpoint, this is the worst possible gender to pick from for the role.

Big businesses have to take risks to outcompete the other big businesses, you are of course correct to a degree though, in addition its not just any males or just any females that are being picked for these roles its the ones that the companies think will do best, i.e. the roight balance of calculated risk taking and the ability to manage risk.
This is missing the point slightly anyway, testosterone is of course not the only difference between men and women and calculated risk taking and confidence are not the only desirable traits in a business leader. Im not going to pretend Im a biology expert or a business expert, my point is that its no surprise that different jobs have skewed amount of men and women.

No matter how I look at this statement, it looks like a modern reinterpretation of "this is a man's job". Risk taking and confidence are not binary traits determined easily by chemical levels, and can be fostered in the correct environment. Neither is risk taking or confidence required to be exceptionally high to be successful as a CEO. It looks more like the role is being labeled to fit a certain piece.

This is not what is meant; women can of coyrse be excellent CEOs, some biological differences could mean more men end up wanting and/or suiting different jobs to women but the right woman is clearly better than the wrong man. What I mean is; I fully expect there to be a skew in many jobs, some will suit more men and some more women, but that doesnt mean no woman is right for that job.

Studies even say that women either perform evenly, maybe even better than male counterparts when in leadership roles within business. While the sample size is small, it does beg the question of whether environmental factors, such as this assumption that males are better at business than women, push females away from pursuing an otherwise successful career in business. While it's not systemic discrimination, it is societal predisposition that functionally achieves the same result.

Can I have the study(ies), Im interested? I also cant comment on the studies if I havent seen them, but I would like to know how the studies simulated a real business environment, because I would assume its extremely complex and exceedingly difficult to accurately simulate.


But to write it all off as biological is a pretty big stretch. Women perform about equally to men in mathematics, yet they're underrepresented in STEM jobs, fields that emphasize strong math skills. Biologically, males and females seem about equal in learning math, yet representation heavily skews to favor males. What biologically would be causing this? People would have said something along the lines of "well females are more compassionate so they likely go to more service related jobs" which seems more like another example of tailoring the hole to the puzzle piece again. Why would being compassionate be a reason a woman avoids a STEM job? You can use compassion in STEM fields just as much as any other field. Again, it seems like societal influence pushes women into certain fields because of preconceived notions.

I cant disagree with you here, again biology is more than compassion and extremely complex, and again I cant pretend I know enough about biology to answer you. But Id ask you the same question, what particular societal influence (toys? tv? films?) would cause this?
I expect youll say a combination, but the same explanation could be given from my side, its too complex a question for me to properly answer and it is for you too! Whether its a problem or not is questionable (which is why its being questionned) because we cant prove the cause, but should we try to fix something if we dont know if something is wrong or not?




I actually looked into this, and this is false. The world of fashion is a man's world, with only around 40% of top fashion designers being women. So no, men are not discriminated against in this field, this is you discriminating against the field by assuming it's a woman's field.

It was a rhetoric, the point is that some fields have more men and some more women, I dont see it as discrimination in either case. The question posed is, do you see it as discrimination in both cases or just one?



It's less what they say you can't be, and more what they say you can be. Because of these aforementioned gender roles that society still perpetuates, the jobs children are pushed towards are different. There's been an improvement in recent years, but you'll still see that there's a gender divide even as children between jobs, and a lot of it seems to be based around gender stereotypes. Boys are more likely to want to grow up to be athletes, firefighters, astronauts etc. etc. while girls are more likely to want to grow up to be doctors, teachers, scientists, and chefs/bakers. It's also worth noting that, despite more girls wanting to be doctors, there's twice as many male doctors compared to female doctors in America. And female doctors performing, on average, better than male counterparts.


Basically, biology should be playing a minuscule amount in representation within a field. All genders are equally qualified, it just appears that the societal narrative steers genders into different fields.

Obviously this isnt very scientific but bare with me here; in my school life a lot of girls started off wanting to be doctors but then hated maths and chemistry as subjects and so stopped pursueing that career. Noone tells girls not to like maths and I dont see the underlying societal pressures telling then not to either, male and females brains are differently composed to could their liking of different subjects be stemmed from there? Its worth noting that following a career path not only requires you to be suited to that job but also for you to be suited to the path that takes you there and for the job to be suited to you. (Also a girls ideal of a doctors job isnt the same as the real thing ofc). Its also interesting you bring up chefs/baking because stereotypically in the household more women are shown to cook so societal pressures would push more girls to that career but iirc more chefs are male.
[sigpic][/sigpic]
[11:49.10] <Scorp> i wish they would ban the chinese
Please note, this quote was not taken out of context
SmallBowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:27 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ragdoll fighting game physics fighting game ragdoll fighting physics funmotion joints martial arts karate pc mac free game turn based game