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Old Jan 2, 2018 Original Post  
Bowblend
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Upgrade tori control system | IK controls
In my opinion to upgrade tori control system developers should make something work similar to Maya 3d animation but with physics. I just want to say that it would be better to control tori by pulling parts of the body during turns. Watch this video and think about this idea
https://youtu.be/XII9aKbVXrg
Why it will upgrade toribash. You will have more precision. You will be able to have more control of your tori. Will be better to play mods. Just will be easier. You will be able to make more moves. I know it hard to make again tori control system but it will give to you more capabilities. I would like to see this system in toribash. Are you agree with my idea?

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Example from cappuccino

Last edited by sir; Jan 17, 2018 at 04:18 PM.. Reason: Uptade
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #11
Insanity
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I agree with your pov. But it sounds like a new game. Making these kind of changes to this game will result in a different game completly, incompatible with any olderversion.
We will have toribash next, supposed to be a revolution and something new.

Now i am thinking how hard is it to actualy implement this inverse kinematics and set boundrys where you can only move parts on certain angles, etc, etc into toribash and make a new game Toribash kinematic for example.
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #12
Flow
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Moving your tori the way you want it to being difficult is a good thing. What's impressive about doing tricks when all you have to do is pull things to the right place?
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #13
Insanity
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Originally Posted by Flow View Post
Moving your tori the way you want it to being difficult is a good thing. What's impressive about doing tricks when all you have to do is pull things to the right place?

There has to be some mehanic behind it. Like how to determine forces behind movent. Its not that simple
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #14
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to clarify, talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
I agree with your pov. But it sounds like a new game. Making these kind of changes to this game will result in a different game completly, incompatible with any olderversion.
We will have toribash next, supposed to be a revolution and something new.

Now i am thinking how hard is it to actualy implement this inverse kinematics and set boundrys where you can only move parts on certain angles, etc, etc into toribash and make a new game Toribash kinematic for example.

no worries, both me and thread starter are talking about the toribash next (he stated it in #6 post in the thread)

and no, boundaries where you can move parts and angles is extremely easy thing to set up and this is a part of the process of making a model rig for animation

so nope, nothing complicated, just as natural as starting blender and creating a model
-----
Originally Posted by Flow View Post
Moving your tori the way you want it to being difficult is a good thing. What's impressive about doing tricks when all you have to do is pull things to the right place?

okay, look, let's look at the whole thing step by step:

tricks and other cool stuff is bound to person creativity and have nothing to do with the control scheme

for example: i have complete control over tori, however i don't do any tricking, as it's not the thing that makes my mind excited, but on the other hand i can do some cool throws in aikido that the guys who do tricking can't

controls are only the interface we use to interact with the ragdoll, this is universal for all players, while the movement we create is unique to each of us and depends soely on our own decisions

mastering controls does not mean mastering the movement, if we will ignore the barrier of entry (an obligatory mastering clicking on the balls part)
it doesn't matter how easy or complicated the controls are, since it's all boils down to decisions player make, meaning

knowing what to do and when.
FYI, this is what skill universally is.

making controls streamlined will only lower the barrier of entry so more people will be able to pick up the game, however to be good in the game players will still have to know what and when to do, so no worries, it would not remove the skill part, only the unnecessary barrier to entry
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 12:42 AM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #15
heat
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Ok I found dah argument to put down that idea. Here it is: some legends, about 5 if I'm not mistaken, got the legend title because of their perfect control on the joints. So you're telling me we should put a simple system so everyone can be as good as them? Sure not, that will just make them look bad / stupid.
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #16
Karbn
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Okay, first off snake: please don't call us children for voicing our opinions on the matter of updating a 10 year old game. I voiced my opinion, now let me explain it.

For Toribash next, I have no problem for upgrading the joint movement, I think that would be an excellent idea. Providing more movement for a new game would bring more people and hopefully make it a little bit easier. Although nowhere in the previous description did it say that this idea was for tbn, therefore I assumed blowbend was talking about this Toribash.

To elaborate, adding more joints to THIS Toribash would essentially be useless. Multiple people have worked to master control of their joints, and many of us stay here because we know how to move. If we were to change the CORE PRINCIPLE OF THE GAME, many of us would stop playing. Do you have any idea how embarrassing it would be to have no idea how to move, after creating replays that wow'd multiple people?

If adding joint states were to make the game easier to play, then I would personally find it boring, as now there's no real challenge to get a specific movement. Now I would be able to create the movement I want much to easily, destroying the challenge I love to have while creating replays. So we have the option of making it too challenging if done poorly, or too easy if done right.

If tbn comes out with more joint states, I will be happy. It's a new game and it will be a new challenge to master it. I expect that things will be changed around to a point in tbn, and I expect to not have perfect control of my joints. I cannot speak for animation softwares, as I've never used one myself. Maybe coming from an animation program into this game is jarring and you'd like it easier. But you'd be willing to jolt as many as 90% of our community with a new joint system, so POTENTIAL new players find it easier?
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #17
Bowblend
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I don't like your thinking Heat "If I spend a lot of time on mastering toribash, everyone should spend the same time! ". Why game must be harder because beginners have to learn how to click on join to tori move correctly not focusing only on good tactics. The legend who can't be good on a simpler control system does not deserve being a legend.
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #18
Karbn
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Originally Posted by snake View Post
no worries, both me and thread starter are talking about the toribash next (he stated it in #6 post in the thread)

and no, boundaries where you can move parts and angles is extremely easy thing to set up and this is a part of the process of making a model rig for animation

so nope, nothing complicated, just as natural as starting blender and creating a model
-----

okay, look, let's look at the whole thing step by step:

tricks and other cool stuff is bound to person creativity and have nothing to do with the control scheme

for example: i have complete control over tori, however i don't do any tricking, as it's not the thing that makes my mind excited, but on the other hand i can do some cool throws in aikido that the guys who do tricking can't

controls are only the interface we use to interact with the ragdoll, this is universal for all players, while the movement we create is unique to each of us and depends soely on our own decisions

mastering controls does not mean mastering the movement, if we will ignore the barrier of entry (an obligatory mastering clicking on the balls part)
it doesn't matter how easy or complicated the controls are, since it's all boils down to decisions player make, meaning

knowing what to do and when.
FYI, this is what skill universally is.

making controls streamlined will only lower the barrier of entry so more people will be able to pick up the game, however to be good in the game players will still have to know what and when to do, so no worries, it would not remove the skill part, only the unnecessary barrier to entry


Personally, I disagree with 90% of your statement. Tricking is not only about creativity. It's also about the amount of time and effort one puts into the game to achieve these movements. Aikido is an Esport, quick and exciting. But perhaps replay makers find something else exciting, hmm?

I agree with you on one thing though. Creativity is a big part of tricking and mastery. But part of what wow's people is the fact that the movements are so hard to attain. I'm sure you've seen tricking videos here and there. Imagine if you could do a perfect cork after three tries. There's no challenge, and the people who spent years perfecting their cork are now deemed average. You've taken away the one thing that the tricker prided himself on. I would say that making the game easier would be better for the game, but look at other games that are fast and easy. They hit, and then they fall and don't get played as much. Their player base rotates very fast and no one needs to try very hard to achieve any sort of movement. Toribash has had the same members for YEARS. I think that says something in itself
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #19
snake
 
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to clarify, talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by Heat View Post
Ok I found dah argument to put down that idea. Here it is: some legends, about 5 if I'm not mistaken, got the legend title because of their perfect control on the joints. So you're telling me we should put a simple system so everyone can be as good as them? Sure not, that will just make them look bad / stupid.

shit happens, if the game is 11 years old and was made before IK became an industry standard doesn't mean it should cling to rudiments

the part about legends i don't understand at all. why do you even care, you are not even one of them, so this part of the argument should be the very least your concern. this is the forum kind of thing that is honestly irrelevant to the game. i mean the whole he/she says on players and popularity contest is irrelevant.

if your concern was that someone thought that somebody thinks that someone was assigned a forum user group that is supposed to mean something for somebody, which have absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay, then my condolences to you, comrade

so please, let's not dive into the forum matters as we are talking about the game, so if your concern was about the skill - re-read these parts please

Originally Posted by snake View Post
okay, look, let's look at the whole thing step by step:

tricks and other cool stuff is bound to person creativity and have nothing to do with the control scheme

for example: i have complete control over tori, however i don't do any tricking, as it's not the thing that makes my mind excited, but on the other hand i can do some cool throws in aikido that the guys who do tricking can't

controls are only the interface we use to interact with the ragdoll, this is universal for all players, while the movement we create is unique to each of us and depends soely on our own decisions

mastering controls does not mean mastering the movement, if we will ignore the barrier of entry (an obligatory mastering clicking on the balls part)
it doesn't matter how easy or complicated the controls are, since it's all boils down to decisions player make, meaning

knowing what to do and when.
FYI, this is what skill universally is.

making controls streamlined will only lower the barrier of entry so more people will be able to pick up the game, however to be good in the game players will still have to know what and when to do, so no worries, it would not remove the skill part, only the unnecessary barrier to entry

-----




Originally Posted by Bowblend View Post
I don't like your thinking Heat "If I spend a lot of time on mastering toribash, everyone should spend the same time! ". Why game must be harder because beginners have to learn how to click on join to tori move correctly not focusing only on good tactics. The legend who can't be good on a simpler control system does not deserve being a legend.


exactly, you see guys, all you need to do is to look on the whole situation from the different perspective,

look at it not from the perspective of the person who got caught wasting hundreds and thousands hours mastering the controls, and then feeling all angst realizing that his efforts were meaningless and trying to justify that this wasted time figuring out the controls wasn't pointless and that everybody should waste time because he did.
and if everyone would just play the game actually instead of mastering the asswards controls, will likely feel left out and stupid, which may cause them to cry, but in all honesty:

we are in 2k18
IK is the industry standard for animation
and ragdoll games are about moving the ragdols to make the movement,
not necessary clicking on balls.

if i was starting the game now - i would drop it immediately, because i can do things faster and much simpler in blender, and most people do drop it because of horrid controls.

the only people that actually stick around are the 2 types of people:
1) those that played it for ages and the control scheme is no longer provide a difficulty for them
2) those who can't run any other games that tb, meaning children on bottom-of-the-barrel low-end hardware

does this sound good to you? lol

stop clinging to archaic, play the ragdoll fighting game, not click on the balls simulator, because if it wasn't obvious already:

controls are just the interface for interacting with the ragdoll, the core of the game is movement.
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 12:42 AM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #20
Lionet
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This is a cool ideia, I'd like to explore this type of gameplay but I think this could ruin the Toribash for many people if they were forced to play with this system because wouldn't be the same thing.

I agree with Karbn about this being implemented in TB Next, but the Toribash we know now shouldn't have its "control system" definitively ended.

I won't say much, I like diversity but at the same time I hate when I'm forced to deal with it. So my conclusion here is that, at least, it could be optional: a script (or some kind of modification, I don't know if this is possible), another game; or even a option to check in game to change game mode.

I still think this is a distant dream because I can't see devs implementing it in game for the time being, but I see you're serious in that concept so keep carrying it forward.
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