The idea of a sub-clan is to help the community. Evil recently had an idea to have one but we also considered the possible abuse that could come of them according to staff.

The best way to circumvent this, would be to give official clans the power to designate in-game who's a full member in the clan from a recent clan recruit?

because this is difficult to stress enough, the community is very diverse in people's character. You have people that are genuinely new, people that are respectable, people that don't care and scam, and people that want to improve the community. Un-official clans struggle through this same difficulty as well, which is why they die off so soon and so often. they have to sift through the same quality of people but without the tools to prepare for the damage of recruiting a harmful member.

Now, the idea behind sub-clans is to help newcomers around because many of them don't even know about the forum. Also sub-clans aim to help respectable people gain recognition and find a place they like within the clan system, official clans would probably like the idea of helping un-official clans. but then by helping the un-official clan unknowingly they've already become a sub-clan.

I don't know if toribash next will handle this issue differently but to re-enforce the fact that the learning curve or knowledge given at the start of toribash is so little. Here was a discussion on "new players" that attempts to pinpoint the issue.

http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=604138

if we can help filter this difficulty in finding members for our own clan as well as other's due to a clan's own recognition already, and help un-official clans grow and improve, while also helping improve newcomers experience as well, then we have a solution.

If everyone could come to an agreement and compromise about what the purpose of a sub-clan IS. then i believe these systems could help new clans thrive, and new members learn more than they know now.

Just the other day a black belt was asking me "how to trade?" i helped them but why shouldn't we help them in whatever else we know by inviting them to a sub-clan and showing them anything they're unsure of? I know that's help squad's role but we're making it more involved and focused about in-game and forum knowledge kind-of like an encyclopedia. "if everyone has the knowledge it's no longer a problem" idea

a sub-clan can be easily found by the newcomer and they can be guided on game aspects that the help squad team normally isn't focused in. we can guide them by showing them where tutorials are, what the forum is, who you can ask for more help, and simpler tasks.

but it is pretty common for staff to receive redundant questions or ban people that don't understand. so why can't we help the community in just this?

if newcomers want to join another clan they are free to do that.
if newcomers want to stay in the sub-clan they are free to do that.
if newcomers want to join the official clan itself that formed the sub-clan they are free to do so.

so what is the problem? if we limit main clan and sub-clan interactions and limit it to teaching and helping can't the whole debate be dismantled?

This is a much better direction for the discussion, thank you.

At the same time:


Multi-clan systems are a hacky, messy, hard-to-keep-track-of and potentially damaging subversion of the toriclan system which attempt to solve issues which may otherwise be legitimate.

Finally, clan staff and some higher ups are currently working on a project specific to clans with beginners in mind. Change should not come from reckless action; use the S&I board if you have ideas like sub-clans so they can be discussed properly. If the specific staff group related to your idea isn't responding, poke them.

Holy what a fuckin awful idea

What happens when your feeder clan becomes too big? Do you make ANOTHER sub-clan to feed into that one? What happens when all the other old official clans with reputations that precede them make feeder clans?

This is a pretty small community. I remember one of the first threads I made was a list of players, tallying at around 1200 (I think?). I'm willing to bet there are about 300 more players than I had counted - but that still leaves you with a crazy percenage of the whole community in your little evil empire. If other clans follow suit, you could easily end up with almost half the community in like five or six clans + sub-clans totally killing the clan community.

As for teacher//teachee relationships, a clan I used to have totally had that relationship with the old [Vibe]. Me and the people in the clan were all new, but we became friends with people in Vibe by interacting in the community. A few of us actually went on to join vibe after we dissolved. Were we at all directionally influenced by Vibe? Absolutely not. There's no need to make a feeder clan to get new people acquainted with the community, just fucking talk to them.

And thats really what irks me about this. You have people complaining on here about getting new members and not being able to accept random members, as if an application thread is the only way to meet new people. Y'all apparently have your own airtight parrot-bubble to the point where you can't deign to interact with the community at large and meet people that way?? Fuckin talk to people, this whole thing is way too pretentious.

Also lmao at the people blaming (((tribe)))

pretty much agree with all this




@Pouffy: you may disagree with it but that doesn't mean you have to be so hostile and negative. Plus, people need to stop with the slippery slope fallacy. It's not doing either side any favors.


I am interested in what kind of system they're brewing up, though.

i agree with pouffy

i initially thought you were just trying to bypass the member cap by making a subclan but i see that's not the case

why the fuck do you guys think having a subclan is the only way to meet new potential members you have your own discord, why don't you use that instead? why don't you tell them to post in your clan board?? like come on this is so stupid and unnecessary

why are you blaming tribe for feeling """threatened""" by parakeet or some shit when their focus is recruiting mostly oldschool members?? why should they care if some random joins your clan?? seriously this whole situation is retarded

The sub-feeder-clan thing could be easily moderated (like this!) but no doubt people would throw a stink over that (like this!).

As for my actual point in that paragraph, there's no good way to moderate the number of sub-clans without discriminating in some way: whether that's first-come-first-serve (bullshit), or some sort of "top three" (also bullshit). Without controlling their number in some way, you open the community up into being stratified into a few different clans, really removing the heart from much of the community.

Allowing sub-clans isn't a slippery slope, it's a gate protecting the community from these sort of almost predatory clans, and it's disappointing to see you to cry wolf like that to defend some bullshit.

As for my other points: Im actually right. (see basic agrees)

Literally 1 person mentioned tribe and he's since apologised and taken it back

Anyway, like has been said a million times here, keep any discussion civil regardless of what side of the fence you're on. Trying to have a reasonable discussion in this place is like trying to play chess with a pigeon

Do what? Firstly, no one is trying to moderate the number of subclans. Thats like trying to moderate the number of unofficial clans in this game, which there is no limit to, and there are no requirements to make them anymore. Literally everyone could have their own clan. No one cares about the number of clans here.

Then saying if you don't moderate the number of subclans the community will be basically divided into only a few different clans? How is this even possible? Do you see how many clans there are in this community, official and unofficial alike? The best part about having a community is the freedom to choose whatever you want to do. No one forces anyone to join any clan. Having subclans will not destroy the rest of the clans. Do you think having subclans will just absolutely stop everyone from joining the already existing clans? No, people will join whichever clan they want to be apart of. If someone likes the people and feelings of another clan, they will obviously join that clan over another, regardless of what the clan is, they will be with their friends.

Also, predatory clans? We are not actively aggresively hunting down new players in the game. Subclans still have requirements and application processes. They still deny people. They dont just go send an invite to everyone in the toribash community. That's what you're not seeing here. If an unofficial clan, pick any of them, starts not getting members, its obviously not because 'Oh that there clan is a subclan, a very predatory clan. My clan will obviously fail'. Thats not how that works. There is a reason no one is interested in that unofficial clan and why a lot of unofficial clans die out, because they are shit, and ran by people who have no clue or experience running a clan. Just because someone else comes along who has the experience and ability to run another clan better shouldn't be a factor.

I think the point he is trying to make is that not moderating the number of clans has potential to lead to squashing regular unofficial clans.
If only half of the current official clans decide to make unofficial sub-clans, the entire first page of the unoffical clan subforum could have 0 regular, non-feeder clans. I think it's easy to see correlation between being on the first page and what clans people apply for. I sort of doubt that many sub clans would arise, but I don't think its right to write rules that only work situationally.

The greater portion of my earlier comments were written badly and in ill tone. I was the only one that mentioned (Tribe). Again I apologise, I withdrew my comment about (Tribe). I have no problem with them or their members, I simply spoke childishly.

Seems most point have be touched on already, so I have little to say besides; Yes I agree, multi clan systems could be potentially damaging and hard to moderate. However, I only see this being the case if there were a plethora of them to moderate. As it stood (Parakeet) was the only one to openly say what it was and what it intended, I haven't a clue how many of the unofficial and official 1200 clans already do this. But for now one clan would not have been hard to keep an eye on I think, nor would it have been hard to monitor new clan creation after this premise. That being said past feeder clans were not a part of the new clan system and acheviment system so they cannot be used in my opinion to validate or condemn this idea.

I imagine I'll just get the too much work talk, I just don't see why this wasn't given any official shelf life to see if it would actually affect the clan climate?