Originally Posted by Oracle
As I mentioned previously, the reason I viewed genji as problematic was the combination of mobility, essentially temporary invulnerability on a short cd, and the ability to 100-0 more than half the cast with a reset combo.
Temporary invulnerability on a short cd? Are you talking about the 2 seconds of blocking most damage in front of him with an 8 second cooldown?? You know that most heroes can get around it right? McCree can just flash the Genji (which cancels the "invulnerability") then fan him, Junkrat doesn't even care he just keeps shooting and hits Genji in the back or pops his bomb before it rebounds, Hanzo can just splinter arrow behind Genji, etc. It's a good skill but don't oversell it with bullshit like "invulnerability"...
100 damage is not considered "big" for most heroes. For Reaper it's 1-2 shot(s depending on if you can aim), for Tracer it's less than half a magazine. For many heroes 100 damage is 1 attack, for the vast majority it's at most 2 attacks or 1 second of attacking.
People don't seem to get that 164 damage burning an escape (which yes you can hope that will reset, but it's still risky) is not impressive. Tracer hits 240 DPS and doesn't even have to burn a skill, yet that is balanced? Reaper attacks twice a second for 70 damage per shot if he doesn't even headshot, yet that is balanced? But no, being in point blank and doing a 3 key combo which could get you killed if they have less than 114 hp or more than 165 hp is what is overpowered...
Originally Posted by Oracle
His ult lasting 8 seconds was deserving of a nerf, considering he instantly forces you to pay attention to him and he's likely coming from behind, which forces you to divert attention from an opposing push. He didn't need 8 seconds of weebstick waving to accomplish what he needed as a flanker, and it often let him just clean up entire teams because of the leniency that time window afforded him.
As compared to D.Va, Junkrat, McCree, Reaper, Rein, etc which you can just safely ignore and not pay attention to?
He could only clean up teams because Genji will ALWAYS pop his ulti in team fights, and in a team fight Genji is not doing all the work by a long shot. 8 seconds was already very restrictive, 6 seconds is realistically enough for 5 or 6 attacks, which means he now has to go on a suicide mission for almost no reward compared to for example a Junkrat in the same position just dropping a tire, or a McCree just ulti'ing into the frey.
Realistically Genji can't even kill tanks now...
Originally Posted by Oracle
And tracer needing a nerf is not a justification to leave genji in his previous state. He needed to be hit somewhere, I'd rather they hit him hard and compensate later than take a light approach and not solve the problem.
?
Again, I find it strange that a hero who has below median win rate would ever be nerfed. Reworked? Sure, Genji has a lot of problems that need to be fixed (the idea of "combos" has always been a crutch that made him almost as good as Tracer, but really it's bad that only Genji needs to do these 3 key combos to be even viable, not to mention his abilities are all glitchy af). But an outright nerf to a hero that is statistically one of the worse seems soooo strange.
There is no justification for nerfing him because there is no reason to believe he is overpowered. Conversely it should be obvious that if the heroes he directly competes with are objectively better then they should be nerfed to bring them back in line...
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Originally Posted by wibblefox
Temporary invulnerability on a short cd? Are you talking about the 2 seconds of blocking most damage in front of him with an 8 second cooldown?? You know that most heroes can get around it right? McCree can just flash the Genji (which cancels the "invulnerability") then fan him, Junkrat doesn't even care he just keeps shooting and hits Genji in the back or pops his bomb before it rebounds, Hanzo can just splinter arrow behind Genji, etc. It's a good skill but don't oversell it with bullshit like "invulnerability"...
You like to deliberately misread anything you retort, don't you? I said essentially invulnerability, implying it's not actually invulnerability, but might as well be in applicable situations. For the majority of the cast, genji using reflect is 2 seconds where they have to piss off. McCree is intended as a counterpick to genji, no sympathy for the flashbang working as intended, even though genji can technically reflect it. The hitbox for reflect is substantial compared to genji's hitbox, so Junkrat spamming at genji is more liable to do nothing, and assuming a wall is always behind genji is also giving junkrat a ton of leeway. And it's ignoring the fact that junkrat's projectiles are slow enough and with less overall range that genji can abuse height advantages against him consistently. Assuming a wall close enough behind genji that scatter arrow will first get past the reflect, hit the wall, and still even manage to hit the genji, is even more leeway than you're affording junkrat.
Originally Posted by wibblefox
100 damage is not considered "big" for most heroes. For Reaper it's 1-2 shot(s depending on if you can aim), for Tracer it's less than half a magazine. For many heroes 100 damage is 1 attack, for the vast majority it's at most 2 attacks or 1 second of attacking.
Case and point to being unable to read, how the fuck are you misinterpreting 100-0 as 100 damage? 100 to 0, as in instant death, was easily capable for genji prepatch. I already pointed out the math that a full genji combo could deal 248 damage nearly instantly with cancels, which does instakill the majority of the cast, and was entirely possible to not fully commit to it, since you could fish with shuriken until you felt you softened the target up enough before initiating it, or even on reaction initiating it the moment you noticed the headshot hitmark.
Originally Posted by wibblefox
People don't seem to get that 164 damage burning an escape (which yes you can hope that will reset, but it's still risky) is not impressive. Tracer hits 240 DPS and doesn't even have to burn a skill, yet that is balanced? Reaper attacks twice a second for 70 damage per shot if he doesn't even headshot, yet that is balanced? But no, being in point blank and doing a 3 key combo which could get you killed if they have less than 114 hp or more than 165 hp is what is overpowered...
Again, somebody else needing a nerf does not mean that genji didn't need a nerf.
Originally Posted by wibblefox
As compared to D.Va, Junkrat, McCree, Reaper, Rein, etc which you can just safely ignore and not pay attention to?
He could only clean up teams because Genji will ALWAYS pop his ulti in team fights, and in a team fight Genji is not doing all the work by a long shot. 8 seconds was already very restrictive, 6 seconds is realistically enough for 5 or 6 attacks, which means he now has to go on a suicide mission for almost no reward compared to for example a Junkrat in the same position just dropping a tire, or a McCree just ulti'ing into the frey.
Realistically Genji can't even kill tanks now...
D.Va ults, you run out of area of influence, it's done and not going to kill you. Junkrat ults, you shoot it, or it detonates and kills a teammate, it's done, it's not going to kill you. Reaper ults, you either stun it or move out of range, it's done, it's not going to kill you. McCree, he ults, you either stun it, move out of range, or he kills a teammate or two, it's done, it's not going to kill you. Reinhardt ulting, sure, that shit's hard to play around without your own reinhardt with his shield up, but he has little kill power outside of it.
Meanwhile, genji pops his weebstick, gets a full ability refresh, and can chase down a scattered team. It's not the same instant threat like the other ults, but it's a larger persistent threat. You're comparing apples to oranges, and getting upset about how your apple doesn't taste like citrus.
Originally Posted by wibblefox
Again, I find it strange that a hero who has below median win rate would ever be nerfed. Reworked? Sure, Genji has a lot of problems that need to be fixed (the idea of "combos" has always been a crutch that made him almost as good as Tracer, but really it's bad that only Genji needs to do these 3 key combos to be even viable, not to mention his abilities are all glitchy af). But an outright nerf to a hero that is statistically one of the worse seems soooo strange.
There is no justification for nerfing him because there is no reason to believe he is overpowered. Conversely it should be obvious that if the heroes he directly competes with are objectively better then they should be nerfed to bring them back in line...
He had an around average win rate because of the skill curve he does have. For every genji that will make the enemy team's life a living hell, there are no shortage of weeaboo wannabes that can't play genji worth shit but play him anyways, and naturally bring the win ratio with him down to a more natural level.
As any experienced game developer will tell you, winrates are not a perfect correlation to a character's balance. There is some correlation, but it's entirely possible a for a strong character to have a low winrate and weak characters to have high winrates because of factors like skill curves, popularity, and other influences. Bringing up LoL, cause it has applicable examples, Galio has usually had pretty good winrates, usually above 50%, never really in the bottom half of performance. Yet common consensus is that he's a bad character with an outdated kit that needs a buff. Yasuo pretty consistently would drop below 50% winrates, despite being one of the strongest characters at the time. Why would this happen then? Simply put, for Galio, he was so underplayed that pretty much the only people who played Galio were Galio mains, so they had naturally good results with him because they were so familiar with him that their familiarity served as a crutch for his weak kit. Meanwhile, Yasuo was flooded with a lot of bad players trying to learn Yasuo because of his power, plus he was a popular character, so you had a lot of players across the entire skill spectrum playing him, which resulted in his win/loss frequently tanking.
As such, your justification that genji can't be overpowered because his winrate isn't high rings quite hollow with me.
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In 2016, I'm no longer a member of toribash forum. The ex-administration (who's permbanned now) used to power abuse and opposed to me, and we are unable to reach a compromise. I am morally prohibited from staying here. I might still posting around on my friend or clan threads sometimes but not much. Goodbye.
Originally Posted by Oracle
You like to deliberately misread anything you retort, don't you? I said essentially invulnerability, implying it's not actually invulnerability, but might as well be in applicable situations. For the majority of the cast, genji using reflect is 2 seconds where they have to piss off. McCree is intended as a counterpick to genji, no sympathy for the flashbang working as intended, even though genji can technically reflect it. The hitbox for reflect is substantial compared to genji's hitbox, so Junkrat spamming at genji is more liable to do nothing, and assuming a wall is always behind genji is also giving junkrat a ton of leeway. And it's ignoring the fact that junkrat's projectiles are slow enough and with less overall range that genji can abuse height advantages against him consistently. Assuming a wall close enough behind genji that scatter arrow will first get past the reflect, hit the wall, and still even manage to hit the genji, is even more leeway than you're affording junkrat.
Not invulnerable at all <> essentially invulnerability.
It's a completely misleading way to describe an ability that lets you reflect most projectiles from the front. Most heroes can easily counter reflect, at the very least by not shooting. 2 seconds if reflect followed by 8 seconds without is very punishing for a hero that can be 1 hit. It's not practical to use in combat because you can't attack with it on, you can't swift strike, you can't climb, you have to maintain facing. It's a great ability, one of my favs, but definitely not overpowered...
Originally Posted by Oracle
Case and point to being unable to read, how the fuck are you misinterpreting 100-0 as 100 damage? 100 to 0, as in instant death, was easily capable for genji prepatch. I already pointed out the math that a full genji combo could deal 248 damage nearly instantly with cancels, which does instakill the majority of the cast, and was entirely possible to not fully commit to it, since you could fish with shuriken until you felt you softened the target up enough before initiating it, or even on reaction initiating it the moment you noticed the headshot hitmark.
248 lmao, yeah with headshots and don't forget that after that you have your self stun from SS, and you have about .66 seconds of cooldowns remaining before you can do anything. In the actual game that is basically impossible.
Compare to heroes like hanzo, widow, reaper, tracer, who 1 hit constantly in combat without breaking a sweat or using cooldowns.
Fishing with shuriken is ONLY to feed your ulti, and you do it at expense of the enemy lucio feeding his. You cannot just work people down with 28 damage per hit because as soon as you hit them once they are aware. The only exception is hitting a sniper with 3 headshots then finishing them with SS.
Originally Posted by Oracle
Again, somebody else needing a nerf does not mean that genji didn't need a nerf.
No but it's strange to nerf the weakest of the trio instead of the strongest. As it stands for at least 1 patch Tracer will remain undeniably the best flanker. If the patch goes through as it is then we are going to have probably months of Genji being useless.
Originally Posted by Oracle
D.Va ults, you run out of area of influence, it's done and not going to kill you. Junkrat ults, you shoot it, or it detonates and kills a teammate, it's done, it's not going to kill you. Reaper ults, you either stun it or move out of range, it's done, it's not going to kill you. McCree, he ults, you either stun it, move out of range, or he kills a teammate or two, it's done, it's not going to kill you. Reinhardt ulting, sure, that shit's hard to play around without your own reinhardt with his shield up, but he has little kill power outside of it.
Meanwhile, genji pops his weebstick, gets a full ability refresh, and can chase down a scattered team. It's not the same instant threat like the other ults, but it's a larger persistent threat. You're comparing apples to oranges, and getting upset about how your apple doesn't taste like citrus.
Those are all reactions that are forced.
All of those ultis used in the same situation as Genji uses his would get team wipes. If D.Va uses hers in a teamfight the enemy team has to abandon the entire fight in most cases (you can't just shield if you have people behind you attacking, you lose the fight). If Junkrat ultis in a team fight from point blank and drops it on them then gg, again you can't just ignore the team fight and kill the tire, and if you run then you lose the fight. McCree ultis in a team fight and (you see the pattern) the enemy absolutely has to react or they die. Rein ultis in a team fight and gg you just lost half your damage and they are guaranteed to die... The only reaction is to burn a support ulti.
Everything you said about how to counter other ultis applies to Genji's with the caveat that he has to survive for 8 seconds constantly in melee range. Run away? gg he can chase but only a small amount and if you block line of sight he wastes his ulti. Shoot him? gg again, he dies. Move out of range? gg, already talked about this, 5m is short. Stun him? Well he dies so gg...
Genji ultis, just shoot the guy he has 200 hp and he hits as hard as most DPS do in the first place (McCree, Junkrat, Soldier, though still weaker than Tracer or Reaper.......). Have you tried surviving for 8 seconds in melee range? It's only possible because you have a team distracting the enemy.
Honestly the only reason Genji's ult is used is because they let him hit AoE and actually contribute to a team fight. He absolutely needs it to be viable. He cannot use it alone, he cannot team wipe alone, and against an even semi-competent team he absolutely needs his team to work with him to protect him or stack ultis so he can function.
Originally Posted by Oracle
He had an around average win rate because of the skill curve he does have. For every genji that will make the enemy team's life a living hell, there are no shortage of weeaboo wannabes that can't play genji worth shit but play him anyways, and naturally bring the win ratio with him down to a more natural level.
Ok? So he is so hard to play that at every skill level he needs to be more skilled than those he plays against to get above average win rate. The fact is the game is balanced around people having similar win rates, not skill rates. In competitive you are matched based on your skill rating which is a proxy for win rating. For two people of actual equal player skill, one playing Genji the other playing some other hero, the Genji will have a lower skill rating because Genji is a harder hero and thus requires higher player skill for the same skill rating. This is true in almost every game, unless something is heavily skill capped then the easier to use thing will allow players to do more than something that requires high skill.
An easy example would be Tracer vs Genji. You can easily see that Tracer hits way harder than Genji just by left clicking. There is no incentive to even learn to use Genji combos or to take the risk of diving in to combat when Tracer's ulti is 90% as good and charges faster. All in all Tracer is an easier hero to play, so there is more room for the player to make plays and work on positioning, team work, etc, everything that is not exclusive to the hero.
Unless you play casual (or with disparate ranks in comp) you will NEVER see a Genji dominate.
Originally Posted by Oracle
As any experienced game developer will tell you, winrates are not a perfect correlation to a character's balance. There is some correlation, but it's entirely possible a for a strong character to have a low winrate and weak characters to have high winrates because of factors like skill curves, popularity, and other influences. Bringing up LoL, cause it has applicable examples, Galio has usually had pretty good winrates, usually above 50%, never really in the bottom half of performance. Yet common consensus is that he's a bad character with an outdated kit that needs a buff. Yasuo pretty consistently would drop below 50% winrates, despite being one of the strongest characters at the time. Why would this happen then? Simply put, for Galio, he was so underplayed that pretty much the only people who played Galio were Galio mains, so they had naturally good results with him because they were so familiar with him that their familiarity served as a crutch for his weak kit. Meanwhile, Yasuo was flooded with a lot of bad players trying to learn Yasuo because of his power, plus he was a popular character, so you had a lot of players across the entire skill spectrum playing him, which resulted in his win/loss frequently tanking.
As such, your justification that genji can't be overpowered because his winrate isn't high rings quite hollow with me.
Ok so Genji has below average win rate, but exclusively that isn't enough to say he is underpowered, I agree with you there.
However I never said that exclusively, we both know that Genji requires more skill than any other hero to have equal impact, whether or not that is a bad thing is up for debate. But what we can see is that even in tournament play (the top of the top) he is being picked more than some heroes but less than those who he directly competes with for play.
At any tier you can see that Genji is underpowered. There is absolutely no proof that he is overpowered other than people saying things like "he is hard to hit" which you and I know is just bullshit.
In lieu of any proof or reason to believe he is overpowered, and with the statistics all indicating he is underpowered (which by themselves is not proof, but the evidence does add up) we have NO REASON to believe he is overpowered.
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