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Old Jan 12, 2018   #21
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
If I recall correctly, Parakeet was titled a feeder clan, it was basically a trial clan to say hey if you're good for x amount of time you'll get into this big clan called Parrot. Whereas the Red/Blue clans are meant to help beginners get into the game and learn etc.

Parakeet would be taking beginners and training them up also.
Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
The main idea of this project since it was conceived has been to help beginners, not to be "sucking life" from other clans.

Those intentions are all noble and great, but the resulting effect of your actions will be just that - It'll suck life from DSC clans.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #22
Pouffy
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
One thing irking me is the inconsistency in staff decisions about this sort of thing.

Parrot was prevented from creating a newbie clan, and the big reason behind it was that it would be unfair to the other DSC clans because we'd be 'sucking life' from the other DSC clans.

They went on to talk about how we've got greater 'catchment' and 'resources', so it would be totally unfair for us to exist.

Cut forward 1 month... the HS, a group with even greater 'resources' and an even bigger 'catchment' (you can redirect people to it from Beginner Sanctuary, and they're the only coloured name clans on the forum, so they stand out on the official list (plus they've got a special icon)), has undercut the rest of the DSC clans in the same way Parakeet would've. The only difference is that this undercut is *staff supported*

Other DSC clans can't compete. When the members of Red and Blue progress enough to be 'nicely shown the door', it's only natural to assume that they're not gonna be looking to enter a clan that's a step down (a DSC clan), they're gonna look to join a popular official clan.

So not only does this feel like sort of a big 'lol, ur fucked' to other DSC clans, it's seemingly a 'get fucked' to us dudes that were launching Parakeet.
---
@Mods, move this to Off-Topic if you think this is more appropriate there.

i'm not really invested in this either way, but i figure i'll put out a few of my thoughts


parrot wasn't prevented from becoming a beginner clan, it was prevented from creating a subsidiary feeder clan. if parrot wanted to kick most of their members and start recruiting people out of beginner's sanctuary with the intent of teaching them the game, art, modding, etc, would anyone actually have had a problem?

the problem (or my problem) wasn't directly the greater "catchment" or "resources," but the fact that parakeet had neither on its own. it was parrot. parakeet would gain members by no accomplishment of its own, and just ride the reputation of the parent clan.

there is no such problem with an HS-backed beginner clan. the reputation that draws people in won't be some weird staff clan thing like you seem to be insinuating, it'll be the environment fostered by staff, whose job it will be to engage beginners in the community.

i guess we'll have to see with your last point, but i doubt that'll be the case. if every <blackbelt is joining one of these two clans, it won't be a cool thing to stay in much longer than that. people might meet buddies in the clans or around the community, start their own clans, and generally begin to engage with the clan community. i doubt many people would choose to stay long past 1000 games.

get fucked
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #23
+Ele
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You ninja'd me so you missed my above post, but I'll address the crux of your argument.
Originally Posted by Pouffy View Post
the problem (or my problem) wasn't directly the greater "catchment" or "resources," but the fact that parakeet had neither on its own. it was parrot. parakeet would gain members by no accomplishment of its own, and just ride the reputation of the parent clan.

Alright, that might've been your problem, but the problem the staff identified and the reason it was shut down was because of what I said - It would be unfair on other DSC clans because of our 'resources' and 'catchment'.
Originally Posted by Pouffy View Post
get fucked

r000d!
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #24
Typhon
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Parakeet would be taking beginners and training them up also.

Not exactly, Parakeet wasn't getting down with beginners just to help them out and help them move off and create their own clans and become a part of the community. It was a feeder clan for parrot.

Originally Posted by Ele
Alright, that might've been your problem, but the problem the staff identified and the reason it was shut down was because of what I said - It would be unfair on other DSC clans because of our 'resources' and 'catchment'.

Yes, this may affect other clans for a little bit. However people will quickly get bored of it, then it will really only have use for beginners and people willing to help out. It is expected for this to be a big thing for the next couple weeks and yes lots of people will flock to these clans at first, but then It'll all equal out once the hype dies down.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #25
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
Not exactly, Parakeet wasn't getting down with beginners just to help them out and help them move off and create their own clans and become a part of the community. It was a feeder clan for parrot.

You think feeder clan and training beginners is mutually exclusive? lol

Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
Yes, this may affect other clans for a little bit. However people will quickly get bored of it, then it will really only have use for beginners and people willing to help out. It is expected for this to be a big thing for the next couple weeks and yes lots of people will flock to these clans at first, but then It'll all equal out once the hype dies down.

Until Red/Blue dies it's going to have a detrimental effect on all the other existing DSC clans. If beginners choose Red/Blue, they aren't choosing the other DSCs - There's no getting around that fact.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #26
-sir
Why is it always the same people complaining?



Red and Blue are made to help beginners.
Look at the sentence above, read it, understand it. They are not some feeder clan made to override clan restrictions. They are not a "step" to join some greater official clan. These are clans that have only one purpose - increasing retention by helping beginners assimilate into the community.

We provided clans with an ability to have trial ranks with { } brackets as an ultimate solution to "feeder clans issue" - that even happened before the public release of beginner clans (even though it was less important and was added to a to-do list significantly later) - and for some reason I don't see Parrot using it. So please, don't even use the "MUH PARAKEET" bullshit complaint in this thread because the fact that a feature was only added because of your constant whining isn't even being used by your clan.


Continuing on Red/Blue.
Yeah, they have official boards. Yeah, they are displayed above all other boards, have icons in their names (that have text explanations just like any other clan-related icon you see on the board) and colored names. Does that harm any other clan? No. If you have personal issues with them looking better than your clan, well, frankly we don't really care. It's same as complaining about staff members having colored names or exclusive ingame perms - as long as certain perks are required to serve the purpose of a group/clan, they won't be removed. You know what other perks these clans have? An ingame popup visible to every beginner and unlimited number of members. They will also be able to use the new type of wars before any other clan. And they're likely to get even more unique features in case staff decides that they're required to make these clans work better.


You're saying that beginner clans may negatively affect other clans, but you're being wrong again.
Unlike Parakeet that was targeted at good beginner players and was offering them a red carpet way to one of the most popular and elitist official clans, neither Blue or Red offer anything except for initial help at understanding how Toribash community works. We aren't targeting some specific group of beginners by their ingame or communication skills, these clans are available for every player below Black Belt, and most of those who join are going to have less than 100 Qi. They don't know what clans are, they don't know that the game has a forum - they're not the type of players any clan would accept. They could have created a small clan for free to get a tag if they discovered Clans, but this way they'd still likely stay isolated. Idea for beginner clans is to welcome new members, provide them with base guidance, then let them try theirselves in real clans by either creating one with their friends (including people they've already met in Red or Blue) or join one of the existing clans.

In that sense, the only thing that Red/Blue have in common with other Toribash clans is that they're based on same infrastructure. Players joining Red or Blue will never be able to become clan leaders. Yes, as HS members noted below they will be able to move up ranks, but that won't allow them to make significant decisions in the way clans are run. These clans will never get official clans' brackets ingame, nor they will be getting any structural development as any active clan would do. The idea is to make players who join eventually feel limited by the restrictions of beginner clans and get the urge to try theirselves in some other clans once they get comfortable enough with the community. This is an exact opposite of what a clan would normally do - you can start small (or not so small - see AS) and then develop into something greater. In a regular clan you can join as a recruit and grow to the rank of a leader with complete control over the clan; regular clan can compete in any event without any additional restrictions. This won't be the case for Red or Blue, and even though it's on Event Squad and Clan Squad to decide whether to allow beginner clans to participate in their clan-related events, I assume that neither Red nor Blue would be allowed to partake in any global competitions such as Clan League.



TL;DR - if you legitimaly think your clan is going to be affected by Red or Blue then your clan is shit and shouldn't exist as it's less appealing than a group that's likely going to reach ~1k members by the end of the month and allows no real perspectives.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #27
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yeah i don't see the issue here, this is to help beginners feel more comfortable with the game. why they are implementing it now and not when the tutorial has a revamp? i have no clue.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #28
•SmallBowl
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Originally Posted by sir View Post
Why is it always the same people complaining?



Red and Blue are made to help beginners.
Look at the sentence above, read it, understand it. They are not some feeder clan made to override clan restrictions. They are not a "step" to join some greater official clan. These are clans that have only one purpose - increasing retention by helping beginners assimilate into the community.

We provided clans with an ability to have trial ranks with { } brackets as an ultimate solution to "feeder clans issue" - that even happened before the public release of beginner clans (even though it was less important and was added to a to-do list significantly later) - and for some reason I don't see Parrot using it. So please, don't even use the "MUH PARAKEET" bullshit complaint in this thread because the fact that a feature was only added because of your constant whining isn't even being used by your clan.


The only thing I dont agree with in these clans is the belt restriction; I understand that the clans are for beginners and helping the beginners to learn the game. However, to me, this means that the clans should be run however is most beneficial for beginners (hence the use of discord rather than IRC and the clan being free for all and advertised in beginner servers); I believe that allowing high belts to join the clan can only benefit the beginners that are there, they can learn the way the game works and how it is run from these sorts of players as well as them giving the beginners seomthing to aim for and something to aspire to be like. This was the same reason a ladder of ranks was originally proposed in these clans, so that a sense of accomplishment and progress could be achieved and so that the beginners had something to aim for.

Not allowing higher belts into these clans gives the beginners a smaller pool of expierence to draw from and removes any sense of aspiration from the clan imo. Perhaps most importantly, I dont understand what the beginners would lose from having higher belts in the clan.
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Last edited by SmallBowl; Jan 12, 2018 at 01:02 PM..
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #29
-sir
Higher belts can join by sending an application to any HS member (and some already did). They mainly help to run these clans.
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Old Jan 12, 2018   #30
+Ele
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Originally Posted by sir View Post
Why is it always the same people complaining?

Critical thinkers tend to remain critical thinkers.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
Red and Blue are made to help beginners.
Look at the sentence above, read it, understand it. Yada yada yada

Perhaps you're the one that should read what I'm writing. My only argument here has been that other DSC will get passed over by beginners because of this.

If you're going to make an argument sir, make sure it's relevant.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
We provided clans with an ability to have trial ranks with { } brackets as an ultimate solution to "feeder clans issue" - that even happened before the public release of beginner clans (even though it was less important and was added to a to-do list significantly later) - and for some reason I don't see Parrot using it. So please, don't even use the "MUH PARAKEET" bullshit complaint in this thread because the fact that a feature was only added because of your constant whining isn't even being used by your clan.

Maybe we'll get around to it, but the wind was kinda taken out of our sails due to the heaps of bullshit we were put through.

You're so sarcastic, and in your eagerness to be a dick to me you're so completely missing the point I'm making and the reason I mentioned Parakeet (greater resources + catchment fucks DSC clans).

Originally Posted by sir View Post
Continuing on Red/Blue.
Yeah, they have official boards. Yeah, they are displayed above all other boards, have icons in their names (that have text explanations just like any other clan-related icon you see on the board) and colored names. Does that harm any other clan? No. If you have personal issues with them looking better than your clan, well, frankly we don't really care. It's same as complaining about staff members having colored names or exclusive ingame perms - as long as certain perks are required to serve the purpose of a group/clan, they won't be removed. You know what other perks these clans have? An ingame popup visible to every beginner and unlimited number of members. They will also be able to use the new type of wars before any other clan. And they're likely to get even more unique features in case staff decides that they're required to make these clans work better.

Again, a chunk of irrelevant words attacking points I haven't made.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
You're saying that beginner clans may negatively affect other clans, but you're being wrong again.
Unlike Parakeet that was targeted at good beginner players and was offering them a red carpet way to one of the most popular and elitist official clans, neither Blue or Red offer anything except for initial help at understanding how Toribash community works.

They offer a home for every player below blackbelt. An attractive home. More attractive than other DSC clans.

You're being wrong again.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
TLR - if you legitimaly think your clan is going to be affected by Red or Blue then your clan is shit and shouldn't exist as it's less appealing than a group that's likely going to reach ~1k members by the end of the month and allows no real perspectives.

Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the high staff of Toribash! "Your clan is shit and shouldn't exist".

Gotta love this community.

Last edited by Ele; Jan 12, 2018 at 01:54 PM..
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