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Old Sep 14, 2017   #1
+Ele
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Should we liberate North Korea?
Every year that goes by, NK edges closer and closer to achieving meaningful nuclear capabilities. Once they reach this point, it will no longer be realistic to attack them, as they'll have that ol' mutually assured destruction card in their back pocket.

To me, it's clear that doing nothing and letting this happen would be unethical. The North Korea problem is a hostage crisis in disguise. You have upwards of 25 million people lacking in basic human rights, being denied freedom of thought/expression, suffering under a brutal, iron-handed regime that doesn't permit anyone to leave/defect.

When a country commits crimes of humanity against its own people, the international community is supposed to step in and intervene. They were late in their response to the Rwandan genocide and because of that failure and others like it, every member of the UN endorsed a commitment to an idea called the 'Responsibility to Protect' (R2P). It means the world, as a whole, has a responsibility to step in and handle crimes against humanity as they happen, even if it's being committed by a country's rulers.

The UNHRC has known since 2014 of crimes against humanity perpetrated by the North Korean regime (google Kirby Commission), and people have been talking about potential forceful R2P action since then. If this proposal were to reach the UN Security Council, I reckon it's 50/50 whether China or Russia would block it. They're under a heck of a lot of international pressure to condemn and distance themselves from North Korea and they've been slowly succumbing to that recently - At the same time though, I imagine the prospect of a united, pro-Western Korea on China's doorstep doesn't sound too great to the Chinese.

tldr; North Koreans are being held hostage, why shouldn't we go in and liberate them? It's the correct ethical choice and we all agreed that we have a duty to free them.

Should we or shouldn't we? Why?

Last edited by Ele; Sep 14, 2017 at 06:49 AM..
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Old Sep 15, 2017   #2
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As a dictatorship, North Korea literally cannot survive without oppression. Dictatorships thrive on big wallets and big guns at the top, and no wallet or brain at the bottom, with nothing in between.

That being said, a militant dictator fully willing to turn rockets on other countries at the drop of a hat is completely unacceptable, and that is the real issue. I think that North Korea's population's treatment is disgusting, sure, but as a human that can die, I find huge problems with someone rushing for nuclear technology for the clear purpose of war. I do not want to sit idly by as a civilization of unknowing people are forced into submission to a tyrant like that.

With those opinions on the table, I think the NK men and women deserve a better life, away from a soul-crushing leader. They deserve a chance to avoid the bloodshed that is likely coming for North Korea.
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Old Sep 15, 2017   #3
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Do you want a war with china? Because thats how you get a war with china.

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV(effectively the new world war 1) will be fought with sticks and stones! ~ Albert Einstein"

Russia would stay neutral, China would not.
Russia would be forced into the war (reserve) for China, or would break ties with china which would lead to an economic crash, worldwide, if you think wallstreet was big, you have no idea.
Europe would remain neutral until the first signs of war, i assume the euros would preach peace, and come to the aid of the Russia or Northern United states which would effectivly defect from the united states - from washington, to idk california possibly vegas combine with some country say mexico and form a peoples republic.
Cuba would reveal that they do indeed have nucular missiles, then russia, and then China because we all do.

lets just not. the world is so close to the edge, but when we arnt on it we can dance, so lets dance instead of fighting
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Old Sep 16, 2017   #4
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Originally Posted by Cassh View Post
Do you want a war with china? Because thats how you get a war with china.

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV(effectively the new world war 1) will be fought with sticks and stones! ~ Albert Einstein"

Russia would stay neutral, China would not.
Russia would be forced into the war (reserve) for China, or would break ties with china which would lead to an economic crash, worldwide, if you think wallstreet was big, you have no idea.
Europe would remain neutral until the first signs of war, i assume the euros would preach peace, and come to the aid of the Russia or Northern United states which would effectivly defect from the united states - from washington, to idk california possibly vegas combine with some country say mexico and form a peoples republic.
Cuba would reveal that they do indeed have nucular missiles, then russia, and then China because we all do.

lets just not. the world is so close to the edge, but when we arnt on it we can dance, so lets dance instead of fighting

What are you basing your speculation on? China wouldn't do shit. As I've said they're already started backing away from North Korea (i.e. imposing trade restrictions) - One example.

The international pressure to back off in the support of NK has really gotten to them. Think about it from China's perspective. Do you think they're willing to risk nuclear Armageddon for the sake of Kim Jong Un? They absolutely wouldn't, they're not crazy, they're realists.

I mean, your horror story sounds fun, but it's just a story.

The real issue is getting any sort of forceful humanitarian action through the UNSC. That's where China might conceivably veto it. With proper assurances (like a promise to help with the resulting refugees) and negotiation however, I think it's plausible R2P action could be passed in motion.
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Old Sep 16, 2017   #5
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Lol liberate north Korea? Yeah no. Where do you think 25 million uneducated and 50 years behind in technology people will go after their "liberation". That's 25 million refugees you've just created that will burden South Korea immensely, and throw that whole area into dissaray. Please look at the Arab springs and Syria. Sure those dudes were "liberated" but are they any better off than 10 years ago when they had a dictator? I'll give you a hint the answer is no. They have new dictators now and ISIS. What makes you think that getting rid of Kim jong un and his dictatorship would lead to a fair and good country instead of another dictatorship? China and Russia wouldn't do shit, Americans are enormous trade partners of both those countries. Nobody likes what North Korea is doing to its people but military action will not solve the problems of that country. Furthermore NK knows that as soon as it even considers using military force on anyone other than its own citizens, they will be completely obliterated. I feel bad for the north Koreans but liberation is not what they need. They need information that isn't 50 years out of date and an updating of their dictator policies to more modern solutions. China was a dictatorship under Mao. It is no longer a dictatorship and is thriving. The process that China followed is similar to the one NK needs to follow.
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Last edited by sirkill1; Sep 16, 2017 at 06:42 AM..
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Old Sep 16, 2017   #6
+Ele
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Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
I feel bad for the north Koreans but liberation is not what they need. They need information that isn't 50 years out of date and an updating of their dictator policies to more modern solutions. China was a dictatorship under Mao. It is no longer a dictatorship and is thriving. The process that China followed is similar to the one NK needs to follow.

I don't think you know very much about North Korea if you think that it's possible for the people to revolt (google their electricity situation and google their caste system) or for the regime to 'fix' itself and open itself up to the world. China was never able to block all outside information in the same way that NK does.

Bottom line is these people will continue to be held hostage if we do nothing - They've no access to information other than what someone might find on a USB that a tourist drops, and they've no means of forming a resistance due to the caste system and the other institutionalised ways of repressing 'subversive' action/thought.

Yes, there will be refugees. "Oh, these people we freed are free now", that's how it works. The global community can, like it did with the Syrian refugees, negotiate amongst themselves about who'll take how many. We have lots of global humanitarian mechanism in place to ease that process as well.

It's not like there'd be some power-vacuum that a new dictator would take advantage of either, you'd have a united Korean state. This United Korea would absolutely make it a priority that the NK refugees are helped and settled into their cities.
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Old Sep 16, 2017   #7
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Every year that goes by, NK edges closer and closer to achieving meaningful nuclear capabilities. Once they reach this point, it will no longer be realistic to attack them, as they'll have that ol' mutually assured destruction card in their back pocket.

To me, it's clear that doing nothing and letting this happen would be unethical. The North Korea problem is a hostage crisis in disguise. You have upwards of 25 million people lacking in basic human rights, being denied freedom of thought/expression, suffering under a brutal, iron-handed regime that doesn't permit anyone to leave/defect.

When a country commits crimes of humanity against its own people, the international community is supposed to step in and intervene. They were late in their response to the Rwandan genocide and because of that failure and others like it, every member of the UN endorsed a commitment to an idea called the 'Responsibility to Protect' (R2P). It means the world, as a whole, has a responsibility to step in and handle crimes against humanity as they happen, even if it's being committed by a country's rulers.

The UNHRC has known since 2014 of crimes against humanity perpetrated by the North Korean regime (google Kirby Commission), and people have been talking about potential forceful R2P action since then. If this proposal were to reach the UN Security Council, I reckon it's 50/50 whether China or Russia would block it. They're under a heck of a lot of international pressure to condemn and distance themselves from North Korea and they've been slowly succumbing to that recently - At the same time though, I imagine the prospect of a united, pro-Western Korea on China's doorstep doesn't sound too great to the Chinese.

tldr; North Koreans are being held hostage, why shouldn't we go in and liberate them? It's the correct ethical choice and we all agreed that we have a duty to free them.

Should we or shouldn't we? Why?

North Korea is the only country in the world to be ruled by a necrocracy (a dead leader) their regime is strict. they also believe that military comes first. due to that, millions of Koreans are at the brink of starvation. Roughly it spends on 3/5 on the army (meaning he does not give 2 fucks for his citizens)

Kim loves to show off about how much missiles he haves. When the missile flew near cost of Japan, a alarm was triggered for civilians to take shelter. The US took this as a warning shot for Japan even though the missile flew other Japan. Because of this, South Korea's military immediately carried out a ballistic missile drill of its own, the defence ministry said, adding it took place while the North's rocket was still airborne.

Kim john Un's reckless actions caused an emergency meeting with the south Koreans and the US.

If the UN liberate North Korea, China will get involved and NK's other allies because China support NK if they have any problems. don't forget that China is the most populated country in the world and approximately 2,285,000 personnel, 0.18% of the country's population. The UN aims to solve problems peacefully and fairly. If they liberate North Korea, their allies could get involved which could more likely trigger a war

EDIT: Also speaking of the concerntration camps, prisoners who are put in there can be placed in unspeakable conditions. Petty crimes in NK like reading the bible, not feeling sorry enough for the "Eternal Leader" funeral and other stuff. People in the camps eat mice and rats just to see another day of their lives since they rarely get fed and sleep in horrifying conditions. Escaping can be a problem. Even if you do escape you cant do so untill you have a family

why? because hostages. If you leave, your family suffer YOUR consequence which is a problem
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Last edited by Legendexpe; Sep 16, 2017 at 12:27 PM..
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Old Sep 18, 2017   #8
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
I don't think you know very much about North Korea if you think that it's possible for the people to revolt (google their electricity situation and google their caste system) or for the regime to 'fix' itself and open itself up to the world. China was never able to block all outside information in the same way that NK does.
Bottom line is these people will continue to be held hostage if we do nothing - They've no access to information other than what someone might find on a USB that a tourist drops, and they've no means of forming a resistance due to the caste system and the other institutionalised ways of repressing 'subversive' action/thought.

Yes, there will be refugees. "Oh, these people we freed are free now", that's how it works. The global community can, like it did with the Syrian refugees, negotiate amongst themselves about who'll take how many. We have lots of global humanitarian mechanism in place to ease that process as well.

It's not like there'd be some power-vacuum that a new dictator would take advantage of either, you'd have a united Korean state. This United Korea would absolutely make it a priority that the NK refugees are helped and settled into their cities.

You and I both know damn well they don't stand a chance in a revolt. Un is the epitome of a machiavellion style leader. Any threat at all to his authority is met with punishments such as the three generation imprisonment or being executed by mortar. The man killed his uncle like that. I said the leadership has to consciously make a decision to open their borders. Same as China and imperial Japan. Un does not have to be leader for that. One angry bullet is all it takes, or some light convincing like sanctions that prevent any imports from entering the country.

I don't think you quite understand the magnitude of the refugee problem you're creating. First of all you've assumed that the north Korean people will accept the end of their God emporer and go quietly to unify with South Korea. They won't. There was a dude in the jungle that fought for 40 years after the surrender of Japan to allied forces in world War 2 because he didn't believe that Japan lost. You'd be naive to think that a group of people so brainwashed that they think their leader literally shits gold lost and that it is in their best interest to unify.

There would absolutely be a power vaccum and I can almost guarantee you that his chief General would take over in the case that Un was no longer in charge. Same as happened to most of the Arab springs countries and imperial Japan and sierra leone and an enormous number of other countries and civilizations throughout history. Shit even America, chief General George Washington was elected president after our departure from Britain. Chief Generals get shit done.


Like I said before a simple invasion won't lead to a liberation like you think it would. You would guarantee the destruction of Seoul and the deaths of countless millions. Tens of Thousands of missiles from the sixties explode cities just as well now as they did then. Sure Sk might knock down a couple of them but the shear number would simply be impossible to defend successfully against without significant loss of life.


I also don't know why you assumed a revolution was necessary.... in both China and Japan there was no revolution after the retirement of their leaders; there was simply a party reform.
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Last edited by sirkill1; Sep 18, 2017 at 05:40 AM..
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Old Sep 18, 2017   #9
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I agree with sirkill and a bit with you as well. It could be an entire generation (which may actually be worth it in the long haul) For these people to be integrated into our technological customs and education.

This could also reduce fire power for smaller nations that were supplied by NK as well as reducing the drug trade. How else do they get that much money when they hardly do a damn thing for the rest of the world.

EDIT: We can't take immediate action because they're still at war with our allies SK, talking and finding a medium in which all are "happy" or atleast get along is pretty much the only way to do it.

Last edited by T0ribush; Sep 18, 2017 at 07:14 AM..
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Old Sep 18, 2017   #10
+Ele
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Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
You and I both know damn well they don't stand a chance in a revolt. Un is the epitome of a machiavellion style leader. Any threat at all to his authority is met with punishments such as the three generation imprisonment or being executed by mortar. The man killed his uncle like that. I said the leadership has to consciously make a decision to open their borders. Same as China and imperial Japan. Un does not have to be leader for that. One angry bullet is all it takes, or some light convincing like sanctions that prevent any imports from entering the country.

So you're going to wait for Un to be assassinated (might be waiting for a while, like his father), or you're going to sway them through economic sanctions (like we've been trying forever)? Fat chance.

NK is a hedgehog. There will not suddenly orientate towards being friendly with the world. Their goal is to make themselves unthinkable of attacking through the use of a nuclear deterrent. They have not headed down the path of friendship, and there's no reason for them to stop trying to achieve their nuclear goal. I want you to read this piece I wrote on the failure of nuclear prohibition. We're able to talk with Iran because they participate in the global community - We don't have the same luxury with NK, because they've always and still do consider themselves at war with us. Us being friendly to them (e.g. the humanitarian relief we gave them in the famine in the 90s) just results in our friendliness being taken advantage of. They are fully, and will stay, fully committed to the downfall of the West.

Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
I don't think you quite understand the magnitude of the refugee problem you're creating. First of all you've assumed that the north Korean people will accept the end of their God emporer and go quietly to unify with South Korea. They won't. There was a dude in the jungle that fought for 40 years after the surrender of Japan to allied forces in world War 2 because he didn't believe that Japan lost. You'd be naive to think that a group of people so brainwashed that they think their leader literally shits gold lost and that it is in their best interest to unify.

For as many instances of peoples refusing to surrender, I can name as many instances of peoples accepting surrender.

Also lol. A dude in Japan took 40 years to come around? Didn't take the rest of the country so long.

I think you also buy into some of the Western media rumours a bit too much. They don't nod when if someone asks 'Does Kim Jong Un shit gold' because they actually believe he shits gold, they nod because they know they're supposed to nod and they know that if they don't nod, their life and their families lives are going to get even more shitty real quick.

Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
There would absolutely be a power vaccum and I can almost guarantee you that his chief General would take over in the case that Un was no longer in charge. Same as happened to most of the Arab springs countries and imperial Japan and sierra leone and an enormous number of other countries and civilizations throughout history. Shit even America, chief General George Washington was elected president after our departure from Britain. Chief Generals get shit done.

-.-

Know who Karl Donitz is? He's the guy Hitler left in charge after Hitler blew his brains out. He surrendered to the French one week into his command. But these are all nonsense points. This situation is nothing like the examples you listed. The power vacuum would not exist. There would be nothing for anybody to take charge of. As I said, which you ignored, United Korea would exist. The regime would no longer exist, NK would no longer exist. There would be no way for some other strong man to seize power, because there would no power to seize.

Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
Like I said before a simple invasion won't lead to a liberation like you think it would. You would guarantee the destruction of Seoul and the deaths of countless millions. Tens of Thousands of missiles from the sixties explode cities just as well now as they did then. Sure Sk might knock down a couple of them but the shear number would simply be impossible to defend successfully against without significant loss of life.

All it takes is a big tactical airstrike coordinated to take out their missile systems, all at once. This is already an option that's been developed and discussed, and would likely be our move if shit were to kick off.

Originally Posted by sirkill1 View Post
I also don't know why you assumed a revolution was necessary.... in both China and Japan there was no revolution after the retirement of their leaders; there was simply a party reform.

Well, it's as I said, NK is not China and it's not Japan. You'd know that if you knew more about Japan, more about China and more about NK. Or if you listened to me the first time.

The reason why it's necessary is because those people remain horribly repressed, suffering crimes against humanity. Aside from the obvious moral imperative (which ought to be enough), our countries have also all committed to intervening in situations that are exactly like this (under R2P) because of the total horrors that have been allowed to occur when we previously acted too late, or not at all.

The reason we can't wait around for some miraculous 180 regime shift that's never going to happen, is because every day that passes they get closer to achieve their nuclear goal. At the point, it will become impossible for us to do anything about the hostages. At that point, we'll all be talking about how we failed them, even after we said we'd never fail again after Rwanda (and before that, when we said 'never again' about the holocaust). It's a ticking time bomb, and it won't be long before we'll be saying 'never again' about NK.

Last edited by Ele; Sep 19, 2017 at 02:40 AM..
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