Ranking
Don't test on animals, they don't have the ability to consent. Test on paid participants who sign a waiver or will be reimbursed if negative effects occur. This is undeniably the most morally correct since every party benefits in some way.
Arguing from a moral position, animals cannot give consent, so theoretically we're testing on living beings that have the mindset of 2-3 year old children who have done nothing wrong.

The film, The Plague Dogs, gives you an insight into the type of cruelty that was going in the 60s and 70s in regards to animal testing. Not much has changed since then, despicably.

Man must ask whether he is entitled to treat his fellow beings in such a way that takes him back to prehistory.
It's either us or the animals we test on and I for one would choose the animal than to see a human going through pain from bad chemicals and such. This I guess is why we need people like Mengele and stuff. Science can only move so fast using animals, but actually using another human would bring results a lot faster.

Also Deathrow inmates forfeited their basic human rights already, they're human, but they're not People..
There will always happen unlucky things when you test things on animals, I do not choose a side to whether yes or no these days, if you are a skilled scientist and you are able to adapt theory on a full understood practise(I think we are far from understanding our human body/mental and other shifts in ourselfs) then you should have enough balls for testing it out on yourself.
Enjoint life
Scientists don't need balls, they need brains and testing on subjects and not yourself falls into the category of brains.

Having a scientist fall ill to their creation is just not good for the rest of the non-scientists, the scientist could die without even fixing the problem and we are just left with a broken unfinished theory, which is why we need the animals.
Originally Posted by T0ribush View Post
Scientists don't need balls, they need brains and testing on subjects and not yourself falls into the category of brains.

Having a scientist fall ill to their creation is just not good for the rest of the non-scientists, the scientist could die without even fixing the problem and we are just left with a broken unfinished theory, which is why we need the animals.

you say fixing a problem, many scientists are doing research which damages us all when getting in contact... scientists can get kinky like trying to find a zombie virus but with their informations they are also intelligent. Some scientists are working on nuclear bullshit... but in this case they should have the balls to keep their results and experiments in their circle and only test it on themselfes.

imagine scientists that say they do research on good healthy stuff but their products, which are bought by many people are really destroying them slowly from the inside... some eager for knowledge might be a virus in our whole human race.
Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
Arguing from a moral position, animals cannot give consent, so theoretically we're testing on living beings that have the mindset of 2-3 year old children who have done nothing wrong.

Alright, I'll challenge your moral position.

Do pigs give consent to be slaughtered and eaten? Do dogs give consent to being raised in our homes? Do lions give consent to being locked in enclosures?

No, and we don't care. We eat bacon, we keep pets and we visit zoos. Why? Because we innately understand that human life is more valuable than other animal life. You wouldn't burst into tears over accidently stepping on an ant, but if you accidently hit a pedestrian with your car you would certainly find yourself deeply emotionally affected.

Clearly, there's a scale. It's not humans as #1 and all other animals as #2. For various reasons, we value some animals over others. A cute, cuddly cat means a lot more to us than some foul cockroach. Regardless of this scale, however, no other animal is #1. We don't treat other animals like humans or confer human rights to them - That would be ridiculous (fancy going to jail for screwing with the individual liberty of a bug).

It's not morally wrong to test products on animals. The researchers and scientists are not some kind of moral monsters for doing what they do.

That said, keeping animals in horrible conditions or torturing animals is morally abhorrent. Why? Because inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals isn't moral. I think we could all agree that maximising happiness and minimising suffering are our two main moral imperatives.

If the suffering is happening in order to serve a legitimate purpose (e.g. developing new medicines), the suffering becomes digestible and not immoral. If the suffering is instead wanton and not necessary, well then that's just a morally ugly act.

tl;dr:
It doesn't matter that animals don't give consent, that doesn't make animal testing immoral.
Last edited by Ele; Dec 1, 2016 at 02:50 PM.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Alright, I'll challenge your moral position.

I'm guessing you're still mad about the abortion thing. Alright, go ahead.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Do pigs give consent to be slaughtered and eaten? Do dogs give consent to being raised in our homes? Do lions give consent to being locked in enclosures?

No, and we don't care. We eat bacon, we keep pets and we visit zoos.

What's with the inclusive pronouns? I care and lots of others do, otherwise animal rights wouldn't be debated so often.

Firstly, pigs being slaughtered is not a necessity, or an act that is seeking a good end. It is purely for pleasure and hyperbolized sustenance. Viva.org estimates that around 9.8 million pigs were killed in the UK in 2013. That's ridiculous.

Dogs being raised in our homes is an act seeking a good end; we do not ask children for consent when we give them injections. The fact is, children and animals don't know what they want, and require our guidance. What isn't seeking a good end is dogs being bred continuously for money. It is vitally important that we focus on the dogs already here.

As for lions, man has deemed it our responsibility to preserve the species we have almost narrowed down to extinction. Of course, lions cannot give consent, but it can be confidently asserted that their numbers would drop to zero in a matter of years without our protection.

The question of responsibility is fundamental in this debate. If you believe that it is not our responsibility to look after animals, then that is your belief. I believe it's morally imperative.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Why? Because we innately understand that human life is more valuable than other animal life. You wouldn't burst into tears over accidently stepping on an ant, but if you accidently hit a pedestrian with your car you would certainly find yourself deeply emotionally affected.

I recognise the concept of moral categories. Stefan Molyneux did a video on it here.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Clearly, there's a scale. It's not humans as #1 and all other animals as #2. For various reasons, we value some animals over others. A cute, cuddly cat means a lot more to us than some foul cockroach. Regardless of this scale, however, no other animal is #1. We don't treat other animals like humans or confer human rights to them - That would be ridiculous (fancy going to jail for screwing with the individual liberty of a bug).

You already made this point in your last paragraph, and I'm not arguing against it. Rights are generally given to creatures that can conceptualize our morality and laws, or have the potential too (which would then avoid the exclusion of babies and very small children). Animals generally cannot conceptualize, so I don't believe that they should be given the same rights as us. Going back to moral categories, some deserve more rights than others based on their mental capacity and capabilities. Right now we are deeming it appropriate to kill for pleasure; living beings with the ability to feel pain and emotion.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
It's not morally wrong to test products on animals. The researchers and scientists are not some kind of moral monsters for doing what they do.

It's very dangerous to state objective standpoints in morality. We are constantly changing our perception of morality, and we have done for the last century (e.g. giving homosexuals and women equality)... If it's just your opinion that they're not morally wrong for doing what they do, then you're free to that opinion, but you did state it like a fact, which I'm just trying to clarify.

It is my belief that they are wrong on the conditions of whether we believe this to be for a good end. I'm not sure if curing every disease in the world is a good end in the long term, but that's a discussion for another time.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
That said, keeping animals in horrible conditions or torturing animals is morally abhorrent. Why? Because inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals isn't moral. I think we could all agree that maximising happiness and minimising suffering are our two main moral imperatives.

Glad you agree, Ele.
Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
I'm guessing you're still mad about the abortion thing. Alright, go ahead.

No. Are you mad or something though? Seems like you're projecting.

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
What's with the inclusive pronouns? I care and lots of others do, otherwise animal rights wouldn't be debated so often.

Are you a vegetarian then? You ever visited a zoo? You ever had a pet? Generally, most people can relate with these things. There's no need to dispute such a pedantic point.

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
Firstly, pigs being slaughtered blah blah

Dogs being raised blah blah

As for lions, blah blah blah

The point of the examples was to show that all of these things are done without consent and the majority of people are fine with it. You're trying to disprove a point I wasn't making.

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
Right now we are deeming it appropriate to kill for pleasure; living beings with the ability to feel pain and emotion.

Uhh, explain to me how you came to this conclusion in the context of animal testing? I don't see how it relates.

Originally Posted by Mallymkun View Post
It's very dangerous to state objective standpoints in morality. We are constantly changing our perception of morality, and we have done for the last century (e.g. giving homosexuals and women equality)... If it's just your opinion that they're not morally wrong for doing what they do, then you're free to that opinion, but you did state it like a fact, which I'm just trying to clarify.

I think it's possible to establish a baseline standard of morality that all sane people would agree with - I don't think it's absurd to suggest there are some objective truths in ethics. I briefly mentioned it before; maximising happiness and minimising suffering. You seem interested in podcasts, so give a listen to this conversation between Sam Harris and philosopher/ethicist Peter Singer.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
No. Are you mad or something though? Seems like you're projecting.

Right, because I felt it was appropriate to quote you in my signature and call you a nutter. Please.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Are you a vegetarian then? You ever visited a zoo? You ever had a pet? Generally, most people can relate with these things. There's no need to dispute such a pedantic point.

Yes, yes and yes.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
The point of the examples was to show that all of these things are done without consent and the majority of people are fine with it. You're trying to disprove a point I wasn't making.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

I clearly argued that what we perceive to be a good end can be the justification for acting out without another animal's consent. I'm merely elaborating on the initial point I made, while making the differentiation between the purpose of the situations you asked me.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Uhh, explain to me how you came to this conclusion in the context of animal testing? I don't see how it relates.

Was a statement on slaughter. The animal testing point I made was in this quote, that I purposely put in bold so that you couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't miss it,
"It is my belief that they are wrong on the conditions of whether we believe this to be for a good end. I'm not sure if curing every disease in the world is a good end in the long term, but that's a discussion for another time."

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
I think it's possible to establish a baseline standard of morality that all sane people would agree with - I don't think it's absurd to suggest there are some objective truths in ethics. I briefly mentioned it before; maximising happiness and minimising suffering. You seem interested in podcasts, so give a listen to this conversation between Sam Harris and philosopher/ethicist Peter Singer.

I will give it a listen.