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Old Feb 3, 2015   #11
Zelda
 
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The problem is that there is a difference between being able to afford an iPhone or not and having parents who could afford to GM you or not. Use it to eliminate sickness, not to supercharge babies.
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #12
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Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
...having parents who could afford to GM you or not. Use it to eliminate sickness, not to supercharge babies.

Only in 'Murica. You either introduce a social net like the rest of the developed world by then, or get stomped by the European Übermensch.
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #13
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
I think there's a big difference in the effect that the new iPhone has on social stability than the effect of the introduction of an entirely new way to discrimante against the poor.

"People are already unequal" isn't a good defence to the introduction of something that would make it worse. It's like saying "Screw it, it's already broke, let's burn this baby down". That's not a good attitude to have on social class and inequality.

"... entirely new way to discriminate"? I don't think you have a pragmatic to bring that up besides "it makes a good line".

The only difference between the new iphone and gm is magnitude, and even then it's quite arguable. Depending on the cost and magnitude of legalized gm there may be a huge impact or no impact. Hell, even now you can order whatever you need online, if you were really game for it you could mod yourself some glow-in-the-dark skin fairly cheaply.

Calling it a defense implies I need to defend my position. Your argument is "inequality is bad" - something that you simply assert mind you - but inequality is a fact of life. By nature people are not equal. Using gm people can be made equal, yet you oppose it because of cost concerns - a concern that applies to literally everything from broccoli to lamborghinis. Then you arbitrarily decide that iphones are ok but gm isn't?

Social class and inequality are unsolvable problems without radical solutions like communism and widespread gm.
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #14
+Ele
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Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
"... entirely new way to discriminate"? I don't think you have a pragmatic to bring that up besides "it makes a good line".

Your English is bad. Pragmatic isn't a noun. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
The only difference between the new iphone and gm is magnitude, and even then it's quite arguable. Depending on the cost and magnitude of legalized gm there may be a huge impact or no impact.

Yes, and that's my point. We don't know the impact this will have on society and you were saying before that that you know everything and that there's no cons to gm. We don't know the magnitude of the impact or even what impact it will have. It's totally wrong to be so certain in your position that there's no cons to gm.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Calling it a defense implies I need to defend my position. Your argument is "inequality is bad", blah blah blah, my deluded implications about your position that I don't understand

.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Social class and inequality are unsolvable problems without radical solutions like communism and widespread gm.

Nope. You don't know every solution to the problem. Class is much more intricate that just technology and politics.

Basically, you have a rigidly optimistic and teleological perspective about gm.

Last edited by Ele; Feb 3, 2015 at 01:14 PM..
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #15
ynvaser
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Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Social class and inequality are unsolvable problems without radical solutions like communism and widespread gm.

Having good genes is important, but so is personality. I know a lot of brilliant people who are lazy shits and won't achieve much because of that.

Communism isn't working, what the fuck are you even on about? It contradicts human nature, unless you want to engineer people without ambition.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Yes, and that's my point. We don't know the impact this will have on society and you were saying before that that you know everything and that there's no cons to gm. We don't know the magnitude of the impact or even what impact it will have. It's totally wrong to be so certain in your position that there's no cons to gm.

There are no long-term cons to gm. The weak must die for the race to advance. Humanity as a whole is lot more important than the individual feelings of some individuals who are affected negatively by that advancement.

Last edited by ynvaser; Feb 3, 2015 at 01:57 PM..
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #16
Antman777
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I somewhat disagree with that last statement ynvaser. In this particular situation, it's possible that there are long term cons and issues that exist for gm, though I dont know what they could be. True, the body is more than its individual parts, but they are important either way.

But as for gm being a solution? I can only postulate so far into the future, but I think that for a time, gm will be successful and have little to no obvious down sides. But I can also see this being thhrown out of proportion and corrupted. I feel ther also may be a separation of classes, or simply a discrimiination altogether. Humans are masters and pioneers of change, but some changes we have difficulty accepting.
-----
Oh and ImmortalPig, an iphone ad genetic modification are two extremely different things. In no situation could the two be properly and correctly compared. Choose a better comparison so as not to bring confusion.
I am light. I am darkness. I am a rushing waterfall. I am a blazing inferno. I am and I am not. The Power of Nothingness compels me...DENJIN HADOUKEN!

Last edited by Antman777; Feb 3, 2015 at 03:10 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #17
ImmortalPig
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Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Your English is bad. Pragmatic isn't a noun. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

"I don't think you have a pragmatic reason to bring that up besides "it makes a good line"."

You are always so keen to overthink typos lol.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Yes, and that's my point. We don't know the impact this will have on society and you were saying before that that you know everything and that there's no cons to gm. We don't know the magnitude of the impact or even what impact it will have. It's totally wrong to be so certain in your position that there's no cons to gm.

So you assume the worst without any reason to think so? Ok.

Sure, in WORST POSSIBLE CASE then we have mass class warfare as the super-rich ascend to near-god-like status.

Can we shift gear to something more realistic now? You've made your point.

Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Nope. You don't know every solution to the problem. Class is much more intricate that just technology and politics.

Basically, you have a rigidly optimistic and teleological perspective about gm.

Originally Posted by ynvaser View Post
Having good genes is important, but so is personality. I know a lot of brilliant people who are lazy shits and won't achieve much because of that.

Communism isn't working, what the fuck are you even on about? It contradicts human nature, unless you want to engineer people without ambition.

lol what. Sorry but this post with that quote, it makes no sense.

Did you take my post to mean that I want everyone to be genetically modified to be identical and have global communism implemented? I was just saying that unless you do something completely stupid people are going to be different and have different amounts of power. Hell, even if we did implement such an absurd scheme, I'm sure classism would still find a way to manifest.
Originally Posted by ynvaser View Post
I'd suggest you all the movie "Gattaca" which tackles the same question Ele and Pig are on about. Eugenics will probably be brought back into fashion, and I'd not be surprised if "genetist" would be the new "racist" label. (Although this will only affect the US so bad, since in normal countries you could just make gene improvement mandatory at the state-run hospitals everyone goes to.)
You can't have the whole cake without an aching belly.

By the way, I've seen it, and although the setting does indeed illustrate a society where genetic discrimination is the norm, but the whole point of the story was that genetics isn't everything.

There's no reason why such a story needs a dystopic setting anyway, we may as well discriminate based on IQ or test scores or fitness indexes or whatever. They could just as easily have said "your fitness levels are too low, your family has a history of heart disease and your IQ is not at the level we need" and the story could have proceeded with only this minor adjustment.
Originally Posted by Antman777 View Post
Oh and ImmortalPig, an iphone ad genetic modification are two extremely different things. In no situation could the two be properly and correctly compared. Choose a better comparison so as not to bring confusion.

Any object that costs money introduces classism.

I may aswell have chosen apples so we can discuss the possibility of class warfare from fresh fruit.
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #18
+Ele
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Originally Posted by ynvaser View Post
There are no long-term cons to gm. The weak must die for the race to advance. Humanity as a whole is lot more important than the individual feelings of some individuals who are affected negatively by that advancement.

You know, history often divorces itself from the human impact of events.

Alexander the Great was super good for humanity. Connected the East and West. He also killed a whole lot of people. If you were alive back then, there's a good chance someone you know would be dead as a result of his actions. The Mongols were awesome, they overturned the old world and ushered it into the new. They also killed 40-70m people, 10% of the world's population at the time.

The human impact of things like this may be ignored from history, but it's a very real, and very important effect that is certainly a con. "The weak must die for the race to advance." Couldn't help but be reminded of this;


Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
You are always so keen to overthink typos lol.

I honestly didn't know what you were trying to say.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
So you assume the worst without any reason to think so? Ok.

No. I'm saying that we don't know what impact it'll have, so it's stupid to assert anything as absolute as 'there's no cons'.

Last edited by Ele; Feb 3, 2015 at 05:28 PM..
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #19
•Redundant
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Generally I am opposed to the idea of genetic engineering because it already has many many negative effects on people and the environment as it is.
Maybe that will change as the technology advances but I am sceptical.

Some of social negative effects that come to mind are:
• Only certain groups of people are able to afford certain treatments, thus creating classes of people who are financially and biologically superior
• Once technologies become more affordable some companies could start selectively recruiting people with certain traits for certain jobs. That would mean that parents have to pre-determine the fate of their children in many instances by choosing which traits they want to give their children that a company might be interested in.

Some environmental problems:
• Same principle as genetically modified plants: They are made immune against certain pesticides, pesticides get applied, many plants and animals die, pests become resistant, new and stronger pesticides have to be made yada yada.
I don't think it would be beyond reasoning that the same engineering could ultimately be applied to cheap labour forces, thus creating the same vicious circle.

Once very advance, the technology could have another negative effect. Genetic engineering could potentially remove many genes from the genepool, thus making our species more susceptible for changes of the environment.

Of course there are many potential positive effects as well, such as extending lifespans, solving world hunger etc etc. The effects that are visible right now are downright negative and they give the science a very bad reputation. That's because in the free market companies don't win because they necessarily solve a problem but the feeling that they do solve a problem.
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Old Feb 3, 2015   #20
Zelda
 
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The difference between image based merchandise (practically vital to capitalism) and being genetically modified is that you can't take away the genetic modification to see what lies behind it. It isn't haves and have nots anymore, something determinable by your own decisions in life, it is "are and are nots". It takes the effort out of self improvement and makes success (or more importantly the lack thereof) much more determinable before birth. It is possible that anyone who wasn't GM would be discriminated against based on the assumption that they are worse (although they are likely to be, there will always be non GM hard workers who are treated unfairly). And saying that the NHS could cover everyone is ridiculous, they can't handle organ transplants let alone genetic modification of the entire population. And ynvaser, humanity can move on without the weak dying, as long as enough people die we can keep advancing, it doesn't matter if it is just the weak.

By the way, I am a little confused as to what kind of genetic modification we are talking about here, could someone post some links or just explain it please.
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