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No matter how bad iphone 4 is.People will still buy it because of brand :/
Just got my iPhone 4 yesterday.

Incredible reception, got no signal drops while holding it normally and browsing the web/calling people. The screen is gorgeous, the machine is really fast, and it's 3G reception is incredibly good.

Hater's gonna hate, but this phone kicks serious ass.
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Equating a faulty antenna to the Freedom for Tibet cause is just ignorant on your part.



Ignorant is the fact that you're failing to dissect the logic behind what I said.

It wasn't equating the faulty antenna to the freedom for Tibet. I was equating the right for consumers to complain even if they aren't directly related to the faulty antenna. Just like a simple American civilian who never suffered directly from Chinese oppression has all the right to protest against Chinese oppression towards Tibet. Learn to understand logic.
But of course you either failed to understand it or ignored it. Its a simple logic. You don't have to suffer from a thing in order to be against it.

Oh and btw you better understand this concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...


Originally Posted by steve View Post
Also, read this before assuming Foxconn is a shithole.
http://gizmodo.com/5585460/scenes-fr...oxconn-factory

Oh right. Now I understand it. 12 people commited suicide in least than a year because they're treated very well and kindly. Way to go. Don't believe anything you read. Theres a reason why the labor is fucking cheap and most of those workers are poor.


Originally Posted by Murmayder View Post
Since when were you the authority on ethics and morals?

And are you? I'm not the authority on ethics and morals. I'm simply using the same guidelines used by consumer defense organizations. Probably something that you don't really understand the importance, I suppose?
Last edited by GenkiSudo; Jul 22, 2010 at 09:51 PM.
"There is enough on earth for everybody's need, but not for everyone's greed." - Mohandas Gandhi
Originally Posted by GenkiSudo View Post
How come it makes no sense? And a lot of the people who are complaining do own the Iphone4. Just watch the apple support forum. Its filled with people complaining about their problems with the reception.

Well, I should hope the support forum is full of complaints. What the hell else should it be used for?

You answer me that. You're not going to use the argumentum ad populum to prove your points, are you?

No, he wasn't. He simply mentioned that people are continuing to buy the product. He in no way stated that because people continued to buy it that they were logically correct in doing so.


You forgot to mention that working conditions almost everywhere in China are terrible.

Oh, and that their countrywide suicide rate is in the top twenty in the entire world.


Does that mean that just because Bush was reelected he was a great president who didn't made some of the worst mistakes ever in an American Government?

The difference is that these people aren't voting on a variety of complex issues that are completely subjective and subject to human behavior-- they're buying a phone.

Oh, and speaking of logical fallacies you're strawmanning your ass off.

Does that mean that there shouldn't be complains? Think of this thread and all the complains as a warning signal for people to actually start thinking for their own and forget the bandwagon effect.

steve has stated several times that it is the consumers' job to make the decision. Great job misconstruing basically everything he's said and derailing the thread, though.




Of course it makes sense. Some of those are probably not buying it because of that fault.
Also... Do you have suffer directly from Chinese oppression in order to have the right to be supportive of the Freedom for Tibet cause?
What you said, sir, is what doesn't make sense.

The iPhone 4 =/= worker oppression in China. What are you, SuicideDo?
Last edited by oyster; Jul 23, 2010 at 12:23 AM.
back from the dead
Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
Well, I should hope the support forum is full of complaints. What the hell else should it be used for?

If you really think about it and read it, that was simply a direct answer to a fallacious argument by steve saying that "The people who are complaining don't even own this product.", like if that stops us from having any credibility on our complains.


Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
No, he wasn't. He simply mentioned that people are continuing to buy the product. He in no way stated that because people continued to buy it that they were logically correct in doing so.

And where does that prove me wrong? Does that makes the complains an unjustifiable thing with no true meaning?
Let me give you an example: Just because a lot of people smoke, even though its logically wrong, does that means that we shouldn't complain about the liars who run the tobacco industry? Even if we don't smoke?

And before you say something: No I'm not comparing the iphone4 to the tobacco industry. Its a parallel example based on logic and justification (or lack of) for the complains.



Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
You forgot to mention that working conditions almost everywhere in China are terrible.

I'm sure you'll find me bashing China and other places like Taiwan for their lack of ethics and exploitation of poor people's hard labor.
But still, Apple is holding hands with such wrondoings trying to make as much profit as they can on overpriced products (judging by the price one could imagine like if they were produced in Germany like Leica lens or Beyerdynamics High-End Headphones or some shit like that) but yeah. Its that ridiculous.
Just becase all the working conditions in China are terrible, does that mean you should exploit it like everyone else does?

Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
Oh, and that their countrywide suicide rate is in the top twenty in the entire world.

Which totally annihilates the false premise that the workers who make the iPhone 4 are living a more luxurious life than the ones who aren't. If foxconn factories are really that great, then why bother to commit suicide? They're in heaven already, right? (yes, I'm being sarcastic)




Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
The difference is that these people aren't voting on a variety of complex issues that are completely subjective and subject to human behavior-- they're buying a phone.


Oh, and speaking of logical fallacies you're strawmanning your ass off.

Care to provide more information on how I am using the straw man fallacy?


Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
steve has stated several times that it is the consumers' job to make the decision. Great job misconstruing basically everything he's said and derailing the thread, though.

Great job ignoring the fact that I was approaching the issue in a way that is undeniably correct: Apple really fucked it up on this one. And consumers these days don't even know how to demand proper servicing. Thats why people like the Geek Squad in Best Buy stores constantly spit in your faces with shitty quality servicing. What ever happened to the utility of the complaint books?


Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
The iPhone 4 =/= worker oppression in China. What are you, SuicideDo?

If Apple is joining the boat of those who exploit the cheap labor of the Chinese workers (who work on shitty conditions with shitty monthly remuneration) then it is to blame as much as Foxconn is.
Its called condescending and it makes Apple an accomplice. Plus its even more serious since Apple has higher speculative prices. Kinda reminds me of the so called "conflict diamonds".

Plus I wasn't even talking about that. I was giving an example that we don't necessarily need to suffer from chinese oppression in order to condemn their politics towards Tibet. Once again it was a direct answer to the argument that "we have no right to complain if we don't own the cellphone".
Last edited by GenkiSudo; Jul 23, 2010 at 01:17 AM.
"There is enough on earth for everybody's need, but not for everyone's greed." - Mohandas Gandhi
Fun fact: The suicide rate at Foxconn is LOWER than the average rate for China as a whole!

Just gonna throw that out there. (read this from either gizmodo or engadget)
BTW, my mom used to work at a factory in Taiwan as a teenager. This was over 30 years ago, so things may have changed or they may be worse in China, but she's never spoken of the experience negatively. It was just work for money, like most other jobs. It sure beats trying to peddle crops at a farmer's market or maybe worse. If you think of things that people living in the countryside might sometimes have to do to stay alive, a stable factory job isn't bad AT ALL.

CONGRATS HAMSTER!!! It really is a good phone. I've played with it several times already, a few at the Apple store, once from a friend. The antenna issue is true though. However, I was never able to get bars down using just one finger on any of the phones, only when I did the left hand death grip, which actually isn't a very comfortable position at all.
I did try the test of loading a webpage and taking my hand on and off the antenna merging place to see if it really could affect loading, and sure enough, it would stop as soon as my palm went over the lil black line.

Still, the screen is gorgeous! The camera is sharp, on par with any other smartphones, trading megapixels for clarity/less noise. Design feels much more refined, and YEP, it was noticeably faster than the 3G S I had with me.

Hope you get a case for it, btw. Not just for reception, but to protect the phone. Mine woulda cracked a couple times already if I didn't get one. And try to see if there are any nicer ones online than the bumper from apple. It'd be worth it. Plus it makes your phone much MUCH easier to keep up with, since quite a few people will have the phone by winter time.

BTW, why would they commit suicide? Well, my life is AMAZING here in the US overall, I got food, a nice computer, a car, a house, air conditioning, etc, but I still get moments of depression and have thought about suicide at one point in my life several years ago. If their lives just happened to dip low enough, they might just think about it, and maybe they'd decide to actually do it.

Still waiting for news on a hardware revision though. Resale value counts for me.
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Personally, I'd rather make a mock computer and sow it into the lining of a jacket with a battery, so much cooler, even if it would weigh a fucking ton.

In response to steve; Yeak.

In response to this thread; lol e-rage.
In response to voxus; lol that would be funny you should do that.
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