Originally Posted by tripwire
Wrong wrong wrong
FIRST I have access to a LOT of computing power at a university lab for AI research. I will be automating the process of running toribash many thousands of times simultaneously. CPU time is expensive and I will obviously be interested in preventing toribash from drawing unnecessary frames thousands of times. I'm positive this can be accomplished with dirty hacks but it will be time consuming so I want to know if theres an easy way to do it.
I don't care if YOU have access to a lot of computing power. No-one else does, and we'd be using only YOUR neural net in that case, making it nigh useless, at most a proof of concept thing.
You CAN'T remove 'unnecessary frames'. Toribash, without rendering, would not run any faster. The simulation is too complex to run thousands of times in a few minutes on a single machine like you'd need. Regardless of how much CPU power you have, because of how Toribash is coded. Please research more before jumping to your own ideal conclusions.
SECONDLY, why exactly is it that external libraries cannot be used with TB lua? There isn't a lot of documentation for it that I'm seeing form the sticky threads so I'm completely mystified as to what I CAN do with it.
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OK after reading the lua docs a bit more and testing it, it looks like the standard io. open write and close commands work fine!!
They won't work fast enough to be of any use to Java.
External libraries can't be used with TB Lua, because it's a security risk that hampa would have to take. Go take it up with him if you need more info.
Originally Posted by Jok
I don't care if YOU have access to a lot of computing power. No-one else does, and we'd be using only YOUR neural net in that case, making it nigh useless, at most a proof of concept thing.
Uh huh. Please pretend youre not a retard and just stop posting
The only way you can say something so baffling and stupid is if you completely fail to understand at all how neural nets work.
You CAN'T remove 'unnecessary frames'. Toribash, without rendering, would not run any faster. The simulation is too complex to run thousands of times in a few minutes on a single machine like you'd need.
REALLY?? So tell me how much cpu power you think physics simulations do need! I'm curious since I've implemented simple physics engines before but surely you know more about it than me!! Apparently its more than is available with a gigantic computer lab or something??
Regardless of how much CPU power you have, because of how Toribash is coded. Please research more before jumping to your own ideal conclusions.
Cool, your condescending while actually knowing less about what you are talking about than me. No wonder no one posts in this forum.
They won't work fast enough to be of any use to Java.
Let's let the actual java programmers worry about that, ok!
External libraries can't be used with TB Lua, because it's a security risk that hampa would have to take. Go take it up with him if you need more info.
That's fine, since we can use standard lua IO functions theres no need to even use external libraries.
It's obvious really have no idea what the hell you are talking about here. If you don't think graphical output bottlenecks toribash in any way are a complete fucking mental case.
There is a built in frame or "tic" limiter that prevents toribash from running at more than standard pace. You can even enable some form of frame skipping from the options.
Since you know so much about what Toribash CANT do I'll let you go ahead and do nothing. Just don't respond to me if you don't understand what I'm asking!
Newbluck: Thanks for the suggestion about the replay for dismemberments. It seems like thats the most promising route I can take to get some information.
What Toribash SDK are you referring to? If you mean the lua files in the SDK directory I've read them all, I'm aware of how to get joint positions and info from world state and whatnot. What I was planning to do to figure out dismemberments was check for when every joint in one of the players was relaxed, since thats what happens when a joint breaks; the problem is the false positive of a player which was going to be relaxed anyway without actually being dismembered.
I'm sorry to intrude, but we don't need to turn a help/suggestion thread into a flaming thread. You're not making much progress with this script, just an exchange of corrections in the last ones idea/comment. >.>
Why don't you just use an external program in cooperation with tb.exe? So it can check and record the ingame values, sorta like a hex editor. That way you could get every possible value you need. Wouldn't that just be easier? And then you can use lua to move uke with the output from, for example, a text file recorded by the external program. It's not like it's hacking or anything, since it's for single player.
(warning: I am nub at what you talk about)
Why don't you just use an external program in cooperation with tb.exe? So it can check and record the ingame values, sorta like a hex editor. That way you could get every possible value you need. Wouldn't that just be easier? And then you can use lua to move uke with the output from, for example, a text file recorded by the external program. It's not like it's hacking or anything, since it's for single player.
(warning: I am nub at what you talk about)
Last edited by Nuyashaki; Feb 28, 2008 at 07:10 PM.
Originally Posted by NewbLuck
As far as dismemberments go, theres no easy way to check for those in code other than checking distances from body piece to body piece. You might want to pull that bit from the replay files.
There's actually a function listed right in the SDK called get_joint_dismember().
Radioactive torso's description should be, "You have cancer like wow."
Originally Posted by Nuyashaki
I'm sorry to intrude, but we don't need to turn a help/suggestion thread into a flaming thread. You're not making much progress with this script, just an exchange of corrections in the last ones idea/comment. >.>
Why don't you just use an external program in cooperation with tb.exe? So it can check and record the ingame values, sorta like a hex editor. That way you could get every possible value you need. Wouldn't that just be easier? And then you can use lua to move uke with the output from, for example, a text file recorded by the external program. It's not like it's hacking or anything, since it's for single player.
(warning: I am nub at what you talk about)
I agree, lets have no more silliness in this thread, its not conducive to getting anything done. I'll agree to be civil if everyone else does.
Jok, I think we are talking past each other. I haven't explained myself clearly enough, so I will elaborate on what I am asking.
I am making a lot of progress with my script; I just haven't posted what I've got working yet. It will probably reduce everyone's confusion if I better explain what I'm making:
I am going to be doing 2 things.
First: I am making A.I.s for Toribash. I will be releasing these A.I.s as LUA scripts that you will be able to download, and load up, similar to how Ukebot works. I am not "hand coding" these lua scripts, I will be generating them with a program.
My goal is that you will be able to load a LUA script for a specially evolved A.I. and have fun practicing against it in single player (for example, there might be an AI thats trained for jumping attacks, or for grabs, or for blocking, or whatever).
Second: In addition to making these A.I.'s, I will eventually be releasing a third party application that people will be able to use, to train their OWN A.I.s
This is a more long term goal though, and I have to make sure my system for evolving AI works flawlessly before I let other people go nuts with it.
My progress on goal one is this:
-I have designed the system that will evolve these A.I.s:
The system is composed of 2 programs, Toribash and JNEAT; I have written scripts in each to make them play well with each other.
JNEAT will generate a population of "controllers", and then it will request a score for how well each controller does in Toribash. It will do this by writing the neural net to a file and signalling Toribash to take over. Using my script, Toribash will read the neural net from the file, and "play back" whichever moves the neural net wants. After the round ends in Toribash, my lua script writes the "score" for that controller to a file, and signals JNEAT to take over.
After JNEAT has finished testing the entire population of neural nets, it makes a new generation of neural nets that are better than the old generation, and it starts testing again.
After doing this many many times, the neural nets will automatically get better and better at doing what they are being trained to.
All that stuff works so far, I've written and tested it; there is no I/O problem or difficulty getting TB and this java program to communicate.
The problem is that these tests in Toribash are too slow; this is because right now it takes about 30 seconds to a minute for a match to play out.
What I'm doing to work around this is using virtualization to have Toribash run many times at once; this way I get about 350 tests done in an hour, instead of about 60.
Now, if there is some way to stop Toribash from wasting time on OpenGL calls I could get that number up to maybe 100,000 tests per hour. Despite what Jokker thinks, this IS POSSIBLE!
One way I can think of is to write my own OpenGL driver with dummy functions, so Toribash thinks that everything is working normally but nothing gets drawn to the screen. This will work, but its a lot of effort that I don't want to waste.
Again, Jok is simply wrong about physics taking most of the CPUtime. There is about 70 physically simulated objects at most in any match. The amount of time it takes to calculate their positions and orientations once per frame is measured in nanoseconds. I know it sounds plausible that physics is a CPU hog, but Jok overestimates it by several orders of magnitude. (If you don't understand why I'm making fun of JOK its because I actually write these things and know what I'm talking about, being told be a 16 year old that you got it wrong by about a factor of a billion is a little funny).
What I want to know is if there is an easier way to speed Toribash up.
I've pm'd hampa asking him, but I assume hes a busy guy and probably doesn't get time to answer these things right away.
