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Old Sep 10, 2017   #11
$abxy
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Okay, I personally am serving for the U.S. Army. So here's my standpoint:

I have nothing against transgender people, although being a transgender person in the military (in any branch), can cause some issues.

1.) Urinalysis drug testing is often done once a month. When drug tested, you have an observer of the same sex watch you give your sample. Now, knowing you can "identify" as a female but still not have gone through the actual surgical procedure, means you can be a male, with a penis, identifying as a female, being observed by a female.

2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation.

3.) PT Tests, or physical fitness tests: These have to be done at least once every 6 months, (at least for the Army). For those that don't know, these tests are scored differently by sex. Females have lower score requirements than males. What if a male identified as a female solely to score a 300 (Max score)? Also: females are exempt from PT tests if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?

4.) Deployment: similar to issue 3, females are undeployable if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?

5.) AR 670-1 (appearance regulation article). This is the article that says males have to shave, have tapered hair cuts, tattoo regulation, etc. For example: Imagine a transgender male, now a female, growing facial hair. Who would tell her to shave her face?

6.) Lodging is separate for males and females when in training. See issue 2.
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Old Sep 11, 2017   #12
+Wicked
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These are legitimate concerns however simple measures can be put in place to accommodate for transgender people.

Originally Posted by abxy View Post

1.) Urinalysis drug testing is often done once a month. When drug tested, you have an observer of the same sex watch you give your sample. Now, knowing you can "identify" as a female but still not have gone through the actual surgical procedure, means you can be a male, with a penis, identifying as a female, being observed by a female.

Ask them who they are confident being observed by.


2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation.

It might be segregation, but transgender bathrooms exist and the LGBT community is actively campaigning for more. If those are becoming a reality, why cant you let transgender people shower together? Or just shower with whatever gender they feel comfortable.


3.) PT Tests, or physical fitness tests: These have to be done at least once every 6 months, (at least for the Army). For those that don't know, these tests are scored differently by sex. Females have lower score requirements than males. What if a male identified as a female solely to score a 300 (Max score)? Also: females are exempt from PT tests if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?

This isn't really an issue. If a transgender male became pregnant then surely they would get the same exemptions, unless of course they didn't want them. As for the scoring, they should choose. If they were born female, but wish to take the harder tests for males, then so be it.

4.) Deployment: similar to issue 3, females are undeployable if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?

Same answer as 3. They would get the same exemptions, as they too are also pregnant.

5.) AR 670-1 (appearance regulation article). This is the article that says males have to shave, have tapered hair cuts, tattoo regulation, etc. For example: Imagine a transgender male, now a female, growing facial hair. Who would tell her to shave her face?

If they identify as a male, and are in the male section of the army then they should adhere to all the disciplinary procedures like everyone else. I'm sure they will be okay with that.

6.) Lodging is separate for males and females when in training. See issue 2.

Once again, either establish another lodge or allow them to bunk with whatever gender they identify with.

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Old Sep 11, 2017   #13
SmallBowl
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Allowing people to use whatever bathrooms/accommodation/whatever they like according to "what the identify as" which can be lied about can lead to issues. Here are 2 famous recent examples http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/05/transg...mates-6429321/ and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39337805 - I know criminals and the military are 2 very different sets of people, but the point is that problems would very well be able to arise.



Although its obviously unprovable whether they lied it raises questions as to whether people should be allowed to effectively choose what sex of prison they want to be allocated to. In a similar line of thought, being able to choose what bathrooms you use could be an issue as has been shown multiple times in cases such as this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html .


On the topic of physical tests, transgender men choosing what tests they want isnt a problem since they have the phsyical attributes and hormones of females since that is their biological sex. The issue is with transgender women, who have the physical attributes of men being tested by easier standards than they should be.
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Old Sep 11, 2017   #14
+Wicked
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It's a tough subject, but those cases are definitely in the minority. A homosexual could also have "inappropriate behavior" with a member of the same gender, and that to me is no different than a trans person having intimate relations with a member of their new gender. By separating males and females you can't prevent these sexual acts taking place if you allow homosexuals in, and that's sort of the same logic when you let a transgender person in to the military.

If you allow one, then you should allow the other. People who argue that being transgender is a mental illness are thinking that it is unnatural and out of the ordinary, but so is homosexuality.
Also, it might be expensive to accommodate for transsexuals as opposed to homosexuals, as trans require extra measures in place, but I don't think that money is something to be niggardly over when people's rights are concerned.

Last edited by Wicked; Sep 11, 2017 at 11:01 AM..
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Old Sep 13, 2017   #15
Cassh
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>being a chick in the military = banned
>being a chick with a dick in the military = banned

sounds good to me.

Honestly i dont see what the issue is, if it were trans people banned from using bathrooms or establishments maby i'd care on a fundamental level but the military? shit i cant even do it on an imaginary level. oh boo hoo i dont get to kill people based off my sex im so upset that i cant be a reserve even though 100s of other people in my city are, its like a colorblind person not being able to fly a plane - i mean sure that sux it makes the color blind feel all sad inside but the rules aint gunna change and im sure theres a reason for it. prolly social issue, and you dont want your testosterone filled killing machines considering if its socially acceptable to deck a trans soldier.

Yes im being insensitive, it doesnt mean im being a dick.
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Please dont respond to my first two sentences they're misappropriations, and are intended to be satirical
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"2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation."

- dude no its fucking not, that is the dumbest shit i've heard in a while.
i say give them thier own bathroom, or let them use ours just end the issue now. we dont need to debate this shit.

Last edited by Cassh; Sep 13, 2017 at 07:43 AM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Sep 13, 2017   #16
+Wicked
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There is no reason why transgender people can't be given a place in the army, so that comparison is dumb. Colourblind people maybe can't fly planes because they can't see the bright lights on aerial towers or something. The only arguments people make against transgender people in the army are fiscal ones, like "Wehhh, it'll cost too much money." Or "Wehhh, we'll have to make some slight changes in how we do things."

Arguments about the mental health/stability of transgender people I don't consider legitimate, BTW, for the reason I gave in another post above concerning homosexuals.

Last edited by Wicked; Sep 13, 2017 at 10:12 AM..
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Old Sep 14, 2017   #17
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
There is no reason why transgender people can't be given a place in the army, so that comparison is dumb. Colourblind people maybe can't fly planes because they can't see the bright lights on aerial towers or something. The only arguments people make against transgender people in the army are fiscal ones, like "Wehhh, it'll cost too much money." Or "Wehhh, we'll have to make some slight changes in how we do things."

Arguments about the mental health/stability of transgender people I don't consider legitimate, BTW, for the reason I gave in another post above concerning homosexuals.

And what is that reason? 'Well, we let homos in, so what's difference''? Being homosexuality and trans are two very different things and they have differing effects on your biology and mental health.

Homosexuality is just people deciding who to stick their dick into (/open pussy for). Trans is a serious form of body dysmorphia - A legitimate condition.

You shouldn't regard them as two sides of the same coin, they're different beasts.

In case there's confusion, my position on this is that a decent amount of trans people aren't stable, so, like everyone else who wants to join the military, they should pass the psych exam. Also, they should be at a stage in their transition where they don't require many medicines or supplements, again, like every other applicant.

Last edited by Ele; Sep 14, 2017 at 02:09 AM..
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Old Sep 14, 2017   #18
+Wicked
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Why do you regard "a decent amount of trans" as mentally unstable? Seems like a massive sweeping statement based upon no evidence but stinking of your own personal bias.

Trans people experience more depression, body issues and suicide because of how they are mistreated. Placing tight regulations on them joining the army is hardly going to help this.

Last edited by Wicked; Sep 14, 2017 at 02:16 AM..
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Old Sep 14, 2017   #19
Oracle
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
Allowing people to use whatever bathrooms/accommodation/whatever they like according to "what the identify as" which can be lied about can lead to issues. Here are 2 famous recent examples http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/05/transg...mates-6429321/ and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39337805 - I know criminals and the military are 2 very different sets of people, but the point is that problems would very well be able to arise.



Although its obviously unprovable whether they lied it raises questions as to whether people should be allowed to effectively choose what sex of prison they want to be allocated to. In a similar line of thought, being able to choose what bathrooms you use could be an issue as has been shown multiple times in cases such as this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html .


On the topic of physical tests, transgender men choosing what tests they want isnt a problem since they have the phsyical attributes and hormones of females since that is their biological sex. The issue is with transgender women, who have the physical attributes of men being tested by easier standards than they should be.

There are several problems with these arguments.

First, "identifying" as transgender does not make you transgender under the law. You have to be confirmed by a medical professional to identify as transgender, and not just faking it. So the bar to become transgender is stacked against you if you're trying to fake the classification, since a respectable medical professional will shut down your request to be classified as transgender. To classify somebody as transgender willingly with knowledge that they are not transgender is illegal, unethical, grounds to lose your license to practice, and leaves you subject to prosecution.

Second, to make this clear because it seems you don't understand this, transgender is a term about what gender you identify as, not what your biological sex is, or you sexual orientation. Transgenders may undergo gender reassignment, but the degree of which they undergo the treatment is varied. Not all will change their biological sex in the process, and many will not undergo the treatment at all and just cross dress. Some are gay, some are straight, some are bi. Point is, it's not tied to their perceived gender.

Third, you see problems with transgender people who are using their reassignment as an excuse to do things with the other sex, I see a much more common problem that arises where transgender people are mistaken for the opposite sex when they're forced to use facilities for their birth sex. When a transgender woman is forced to enter a men's bathroom, or a transgender man is forced to enter a women's bathroom, there is a LOT of confusion that can arise that will result in harassment of the transgender person. Police are more likely to be called if a person who looks like a male enters a women's bathroom, or a person who looks like a female enters a men's bathroom.

Fourth, it doesn't matter if somebody is transgender and commits a crime, even peeping on women or men in the bathroom. Reason being? It's irrelevant that they're transgender, a crime is a crime regardless of your identification. A regular person who cross dresses can accomplish the exact same level of "concealment" that everyone is worried the transgender label will be used for, and it's easier to accomplish since it doesn't require medical confirmation. It literally makes no sense to be afraid of transgenders using their identification as a gender to commit crimes, because gender is irrelevant when a crime is committed. A male peeking on a female in a bathroom stall is the exact same crime if it's a woman peeking, or a trans person peeking, or if it's a man being peeked on. Being trans is not a get out of jail free card. Prohibiting a trans person from using a bathroom they identify with will not stop people who want to commit this crime from committing it, and allowing them to use the bathroom is not a green light for them to commit a crime.

Finally, why would meeting a lower test standard be a concern? If you're willing to accept a person into the army with lower physical standards to begin with, why is it fine if a woman can only meet the lower standards and still be allowed to serve in the same capacity as a male, yet a transgender woman can't? If that's your concern, then it would make more sense to push for standardized requirements across all genders and either raise the requirements for women to men's, or lower men's to women's.
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Old Sep 14, 2017   #20
+Ele
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Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
Why do you regard "a decent amount of trans" as mentally unstable? Seems like a massive sweeping statement based upon no evidence but stinking of your own personal bias.

Christ, dude. You haven't read this thread have you? You at least certainly haven't read my exchange with Bodhisattva. You should read that.

Originally Posted by Wicked View Post
Trans people experience more depression, body issues and suicide because of how they are mistreated. Placing tight regulations on them joining the army is hardly going to help this.

1. Google 'body dysmorphia' and understand that isn't just caused by 'oppression' and is a genuine psychological disorder
2. WHERE DID I SAY THAT WE SHOULD PLACE TIGHT REGULATIONS ON THEM?

Answer: I didn't. I never said that. I've said 3 times (!) in this thread (because I KNEW people wouldn't read and just react emotionally), that we shouldn't place anymore restrictions on them than we already place on everyone else. We already have psych exams people must pass before they're accepted into most modern militaries. These exams weed out psychologically unstable people. There is no need for any additional restrictions, because the necessary restrictions are already in place.

I cannot be more clear. Do you understand now?

Last edited by Ele; Sep 14, 2017 at 05:13 AM..
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