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Old Jan 2, 2018 Original Post  
Bowblend
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Upgrade tori control system | IK controls
In my opinion to upgrade tori control system developers should make something work similar to Maya 3d animation but with physics. I just want to say that it would be better to control tori by pulling parts of the body during turns. Watch this video and think about this idea
https://youtu.be/XII9aKbVXrg
Why it will upgrade toribash. You will have more precision. You will be able to have more control of your tori. Will be better to play mods. Just will be easier. You will be able to make more moves. I know it hard to make again tori control system but it will give to you more capabilities. I would like to see this system in toribash. Are you agree with my idea?

Lengthy post from snake

Example from cappuccino

Last edited by sir; Jan 17, 2018 at 04:18 PM.. Reason: Uptade
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #21
snake
 
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to clarify, talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
Personally, I disagree with 90% of your statement. Tricking is not only about creativity. It's also about the amount of time and effort one puts into the game to achieve these movements.

it all boils down to creativity, the amount of time and effort are just the obligatory mundane evils to fight the controls, to achieve this movement.

Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
Aikido is an Esport, quick and exciting.

But perhaps replay makers find something else exciting, hmm?

does this look like an un-creative and e-sportish to you?...

tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 12:43 AM..
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #22
Karbn
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Good Lord, you're very hard to have a discussion with. You've mentioned inverse kinematics in almost every single one of your posts, we get it.

First off, there are much more people playing this game than children on bottom feeder computers. Second, when I started out, I couldn't do shit. I stuck around because I had good people here who I liked hanging around with and they helped me improve. I'm still learning and developing, so don't act like you know everyone on here. If you want an easier game, then go find one. Toribash decided to be unique with it's control base, wanting to change the one thing that makes Toribash unique to other Indy ragdoll games seems preposterous to me.

Blowbend, I agree with you, the current control are wonky and hard to get used to. I think a couple more joints would be awesome to have! But not in this Toribash(which you've stated that you want it in Toribash next)

I would love to see some rotating joint states in Toribash next. Maybe a new hotkey to control it as well? Shoulders and wrists could use a new state, and maybe glutes could get a touch up. But I personally think that that would be good enough in terms of more joint states.

I feel that adding joint movements like how blender uses them would ruin the game for many people. if you wanted to have an easier time, just use blender
This is still a game after all, it just uses animation as a key playing point. Taking the challenge out of Toribash would just make it another animation software. If you want something easier, why not fight for minibash? It literally has everything you're looking for
-----
Originally Posted by snake View Post
it all boils down to creativity, the amount of time and effort are just the obligatory mundane evils to fight the controls, to achieve this movement.



does this look like an un-creative and e-sportish to you?...


*Cough* that's an edit. You can make anything look cool and exciting in an edit, man. You're from 2008, you should know this.

And as for the movement, you missed my point I think. You still should have to practice, much like real life, to achieve a set of movements. If everything was quick and easy, there'd be no real gain in toribash.

Imagine this. You spend weeks working hard to make a wonderful art piece. Stroke by stroke, you painstakingly make a wonderful piece of a mountain with a lovely field of grass and it looks beautiful. Suddenly, this new guy who just got into art has this cool paint spray that does EXACTLY what you just did, in seconds. You don't feel so special now, do you? Even though you spent weeks on this piece, someone else did it faster and better, days after getting into art, because of a new tech that just allows them to. It's taking art and making it without effort. You can do it, but why?

Last edited by Karbn; Jan 4, 2018 at 05:25 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #23
Bowblend
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Toribash is not realy hard for me now. I just want to upgrade toribash. You are a traditionalist, I respect this. All arts change era so toribash can change. I just want to make toribash better.
Why do you think that arduous work on making your movements better makes toribash an art? With the new control system, you can make the same beautiful thing. My idea only changes tori control system and that's all.

Last edited by Bowblend; Jan 4, 2018 at 07:03 PM..
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #24
Karbn
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Originally Posted by Bowblend View Post
Toribash is not realy hard for me now. I just want to upgrade toribash. You are a traditionalist, I respect this. All arts change era so toribash can change. I just want to make toribash better.
Why do you think that arduous work on making your movements better makes toribash an art? With the new control system, you can make the same beautiful thing. My idea only changes tori control system and that's all.


It's not that I don't consider harder work makes it an art, as opposed to not as much work. I believe that having a very easy system to control joints would take out the effort, the challenge of creating a flawless replay.

Having a push-pull method like what snake was suggesting (I think?) Would be idiotic, but I think some new joint States for the next Toribash would be welcome.
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #25
Insanity
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ok. lets get into more detail

How are you supposed to hold or relax a joint to get momentum
the way that i understand and see this work is the ragdoll is all relaxed or something. How do you extend thed ankles to get grip on the ground (different from hold, witch is another thing).

U would still need at least 5-7keys to control stuff like that and direction.

What i mean is that u would kinda get the same thing if u want to stay at the same level of complexity but fewer clicks.

Competitibely it might be easyer to click 3 joints the do complicated mouse dragging for the same effect.

This is assuming that the game will remain unchanged for the most part.
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Last edited by Insanity; Jan 4, 2018 at 09:05 PM..
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Old Jan 4, 2018   #26
snake
 
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to clarify, talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
Good Lord, you're very hard to have a discussion with.

can't help it

Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
First off, there are much more people playing this game than children on bottom feeder computers.
Second, when I started out, I couldn't do shit. I stuck around because I had good people here who I liked hanging around with and they helped me improve.

> join date 2009

you didn't really disprove my point, you just pretty much confirmed it
Originally Posted by snake View Post
the only people that actually stick around are the 2 types of people:
1) those that played it for ages and the control scheme is no longer provide a difficulty for them
2) those who can't run any other games that tb, meaning children on bottom-of-the-barrel low-end hardware


Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
Toribash decided to be unique with it's control base,
i already told you why the control scheme the way it is, there was no other way back then

wanting to change the one thing that makes Toribash unique to other Indy ragdoll games seems preposterous to me.

there are no other turn based ragdoll fighting games with full body control, if there were, nobody would have played 12 years old game with absolutely inhumanly horrifyingly messed up assward control scheme that also looks like err... aged 12 years school side project...?

Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
I would love to see some rotating joint states in Toribash next. Maybe a new hotkey to control it as well? Shoulders and wrists could use a new state, and maybe glutes could get a touch up. But I personally think that that would be good enough in terms of more joint states.

more joint states - more unnecessary complexity, the higher the barrier to entry for a game that is already a niche
the game complexity does not come from the controls but from the gameplay
the hardest games in existence are the "cat mario", "i wanna be the guy" and "dwarf fortress" all of which have quite simple control scheme, and the complexity and the thing that makes the game hard are their mechanics


Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
I feel that adding joint movements like how blender uses them would ruin the game for many people.

Taking the challenge out of Toribash would just make it another animation software.

Even though you spent weeks on this piece, someone else did it faster and better, days after getting into art, because of a new tech that just allows them to. It's taking art and making it without effort. You can do it, but why?

sorry comrade, but all i see here is:

Originally Posted by snake View Post
the person who got caught wasting hundreds and thousands hours mastering the controls, and then feeling all angst realizing that his efforts were meaningless and trying to justify that this wasted time figuring out the controls wasn't pointless and that everybody should waste time because he did.
and if everyone would just play the game actually instead of mastering the asswards controls, will likely feel left out and stupid, which may cause them to cry

Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
if you wanted to have an easier time, just use blender
If you want something easier, why not fight for minibash? It literally has everything you're looking for

i don't want easier game, i want an innovative free-to-play online turn-based fighting game with great focus on customize-ability.
this is the actual toribash description on steam mind you

i don't see anything that says that toribash is a balls clicking game

when i play the game i don't think about the joints, because after wasting a decade on figuring out the controls, it's no longer a thing that i even notice.
all i think about when i play is the movement i want to make

Originally Posted by Karbn View Post
*Cough* that's an edit. You can make anything look cool and exciting in an edit, man. You're from 2008, you should know this.

all of my aikido matches are exactly like that, what am i doing wrong?...
-----
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
How are you supposed to hold or relax a joint to get momentum

you don't, you simply place hands / elbows in desired position and ghost will follow your movement


Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
How do you extend thed ankles to get grip on the ground (different from hold, witch is another thing).

you hold middle mouse button for example or anything, to allow your body to move noclip with no respect to environment, so you are not landing punches that just touch the face, but errr... go through it, so to speak, very easy concept that's kinda hard to explain to a person that didn't used 3d modeling software, but to simplify "it just works" lol

minibash didn't have it and hence the movement was fucked up, but i believe devs know about the issue and are also wondering why they havent fixed it in the first place, again, nothing complicated

Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
U would still need at least 5-7keys to control stuff like that and direction.

nah incorrect, windrose (XYZ picture) would solve both the complexity of controls and the UI, so in order to move in X plane you grab X on windrose, if you want to rotate the joint - you grab the tourus (that donut thing), just nevermind the keys on the video and think that i was holding the windrose,

which means that the only necessary keys are the:
no collision movement modifier
may be a grab

aaand thats it,

Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
What i mean is that u would kinda get the same thing if u want to stay at the same level of complexity but fewer clicks.

nah, atleast the same level of complexity with less keys and less clicks

Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
Competitibely it might be easyer to click 3 joints the do complicated mouse dragging for the same effect.

this might be true for some limited cases though

Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
This is assuming that the game will remain unchanged for the most part.

well let's hope Noribash Text would not be the same unchanged game, as if it would be the case, the whole next and making a new game would be a pointless effort, i mean thats kinda insane to do a new game that ends up being the same, lol
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 12:43 AM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Jan 5, 2018   #27
MariaVirgine
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Removing relax and hold states is just nonsense, it's something that can be doable in real life, like, all the time. I don't really know about the properties of joints in idle state, but I think that if, for example, you start the game in "T" form, and do de noob clap by dragging the arms to the front, the game sees that your "move shape" has the legs extended, therefore you'll stay in a standup position, it's something like muscle tone instead of "holding/relaxing", while you could imitate relaxing state all you want (and not achieving it) you can't make up for the hold state, like so many martial momements require. Unless, I'm wrong and every time you space you get to hold every time, then relaxing will be the difficult part. Making the game go with just force/and dontknowwhat will make it look weird, I don't know if you can show me an example of what you expect to see.

The "No collision movement modifier" is out of question, it shall be everytime like that, I don't see the use of being able to collide with, for example, the ground when you are close to it (all the time except when airborn?) or the actual position of the opponent (because the next turn he will not be there?)

While you say fewer keyspresses and clicks, it's going to be 75%+ fine mouse work, that will be hard-er for the laptop part of world gamers, contrasting with todays gameplay.
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Old Jan 5, 2018   #28
Blink
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Instead of changing the controls completely, what about having the option to go to the old controls and to go to the one you were suggesting?

All I can say is this might take some time.
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Old Jan 5, 2018   #29
Bowblend
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Hold and relax states must be in new system.
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Old Jan 5, 2018   #30
snake
 
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to clarify, talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by Heat View Post
Dude, you're making it hard for me to not insult you. Really, really hard. This game has been alive for 11 years for a reason. It's hard. And torilegends get their title because they deserve it. Don't insult the council or even the whole game with your orange belt. You probably just found the game. Why can't you be like every beginner. Learn English, learn how to play, and here you go.

wow so much salt

noone cares about how old the game is, noone cares about torilegends or any councils except for a few forum dwellers that have nothing better to do, noone cares about the belts or proper english

objective truth is:outdated control scheme is outdated, get over it, clinging to wasted time is not even an argument, just a pile of salt

you should instead welcome the newcomers to the game and embrace new ideas
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 12:43 AM..
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