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Old Jan 20, 2010   #11
Sinistah
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Originally Posted by C0XY View Post
YEAH lets incorage players to use cheap, uninteresting and over-rated moves.
Akido isnt a quick Qi or TC mod, its a game of skill. Using these move can take away that skill.

Yes, I'm encouraging them to use cheap, uninteresting, and over-rated moves so that they understand that they are not all-powerful. That's step #1: Learn the move. Step #2: Understand the move. When you understand the move and where it's weaknesses are, then you'll understand how to abuse those weaknesses and thus counter them. If someone were to just try facing a shovel over and over, they'd learn very little besides moves that don't work. It's tough to explain in my own words, but I think that the article Playing To Win sums up how this is more effective than simply saying "shovel is lame, let's all not use it and it will forever be shunned upon." The only difference is that he uses the example of Tossing in Street Fighter as a replacement for the Toribash Shovel.

Also, there is no thing as "taking away skill." There is skill deterioration, but in this case your "normal" skill deteriorates while your "shovel" skill is drastically enhanced. I'm going to cover this in my guide, now that you bring it up.

Originally Posted by hippybob View Post
I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to shovel :/ I mean don't get me wrong i would still probably beat most who try to do it :P but it eliminates the fun from most of my games :P and it is a game so fun is of utmost importance ^_^

It's good that you'd beat most who try to shovel. The more people who can kick the ass out of shovelers means the less effective the shovel becomes and a more even playground the game becomes.

Originally Posted by RevengR View Post
totaly agree. no one likes shoveling, except the shoveler. the meaning with aikido isnt to win with cheap tricks such as shoveling.

That underlined statement is in Playing To Win. I highly recommend you read the first 2 paragraphs under "Introducing... the Scrub"

Originally Posted by jxc1013 View Post
I'd love to see the majority of the Aikido population begin to shovel. Then, the remaining minority would just destroy them, and everyone would stop

And this is exactly the goal I'm setting with this guide.

Originally Posted by hampa View Post
Shovels today.. something else tomorrow.

I'll be sure to cover the next thing as well.

----- Now that that's finished... -----

If anyone feels like posting replays of moves that you feel effectively counter shovels, I'll put them to the test and figure out how effective they are. You don't need to list how to do it like I do with my moves (contract x, extend y, etc.), but replays will work.

Oh, and you can perform them in single player against a dummy if you feel like it.

Last edited by Sinistah; Jan 20, 2010 at 04:50 PM..
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #12
Rageful
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Sorry, now you've got me interested. Notice how inexperienced players need to shovel to win whilst majority are players who are defined as 'pros' don't need to shovel to win. Heres the interesting part, most 'pros' can find themselves dominating shovels with in the first couple of turns. Shovelling just ruins the fun and gives you no credibility at all. Try beating someone who actually knows what they're doing, not just a fellow noob such as yourself.
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #13
Huck
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Great tut...even though I know how to deeeestroy shovels.

Sinistah, I can't find my replay against you where I just completely destroyed your shovel. Maybe you can find it.

Edit: Nevermind, found it.
Attached Files
File Type: rpl Shoveling counter.rpl (51.9 KB, 86 views)
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #14
Bust3r
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Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Great tut...even though I know how to deeeestroy shovels.

Sinistah, I can't find my replay against you where I just completely destroyed your shovel. Maybe you can find it.

Edit: Nevermind, found it.

I must say, someone just got served.

But nice tut, very in depth ect.
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #15
Praeter
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People say that shoveling is 'nooby' because they can't take control of it and can't win against it.That turns against them and makes them 'nooby'.But I wouldn't encourage people to shovel,not a godo thing do because you don't learn from it,really not.Maybe a bit but not much xD
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #16
CazRules
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for the "wtf r i doing" section, a way to counter it is to get into a shovel position yourself, then when you are bending low enough, just press c, then wait for them to have their legs straight then di the shovel movement, entend both hips and ankles, raise shoulders, and exted abs, its lifts them up in the air very high by their arms, and puts you in control....

plus you can laugh at their failed shovel....

(i will probably attach a replay once i find a shoveler in aikido)
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #17
Sinistah
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Originally Posted by Rageful View Post
Sorry, now you've got me interested. Notice how inexperienced players need to shovel to win whilst majority are players who are defined as 'pros' don't need to shovel to win. Heres the interesting part, most 'pros' can find themselves dominating shovels with in the first couple of turns. Shovelling just ruins the fun and gives you no credibility at all. Try beating someone who actually knows what they're doing, not just a fellow noob such as yourself.

I do play against people who know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Great tut...even though I know how to deeeestroy shovels.

Sinistah, I can't find my replay against you where I just completely destroyed your shovel. Maybe you can find it.

Edit: Nevermind, found it.

Yeah, when I faced you, you made it very clear you understood how shovels can be manipulated and turned against the user. You're one of the few, however. Also, keep in mind that my shovel did work on you about 2(?) of the 5(?) games we played. It's a bad ratio, but it's not 0.

Beyond that, I must admit you did surprise me with that move. Also, I wouldn't want to count it as a "counter" per say due to the fact that you start with a shovel stance in the first place.

Originally Posted by HidanX View Post
People say that shoveling is 'nooby' because they can't take control of it and can't win against it.That turns against them and makes them 'nooby'.But I wouldn't encourage people to shovel,not a godo thing do because you don't learn from it,really not.Maybe a bit but not much xD

It's simply a belief of mine that by doing what you're trying to prevent, it's easier to stop it. For example, it takes a thief to know a thief. There was a show on that, if I recall correctly... where former thieves tested the security of homes and upgraded it if it was failed.

Originally Posted by CazRules View Post
for the "wtf r i doing" section, a way to counter it is to get into a shovel position yourself, then when you are bending low enough, just press c, then wait for them to have their legs straight then di the shovel movement, entend both hips and ankles, raise shoulders, and exted abs, its lifts them up in the air very high by their arms, and puts you in control....

The point of the guide is to make people stop using shovels. Beyond doing the actual shovel, the positioning you get on the first frame by shoveling is absolutely terrible. You're incredibly vulnerable and it's very easy to take you down quickly if your intentions are anything besides shoveling. So by using this technique and then having the shoveler change his mind and do a different opener, you'll be forced into shoveling yourself. You've become what you're trying to prevent. Am I wrong?

Besides, wouldn't it be nice to grab a good opener from this tutorial
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #18
Huck
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Originally Posted by Sinistah View Post
It's a 50/50 chance you'll get them out of the ring on the first shot, but about a 90% chance you'll screw up their shovel and they'll have to drastically change their strategy in order to compensate.

This comment is for the Quick Kick:
I see what you mean about the 50/50 chance that you'll get them out of the ring by the SECOND turn. (Trial 1)

Then I kind of see what you mean by the 90% chance about screwing up the shovel and "drastically" changing strategies. (Trial 2)

HOWEVER, if you truly know how to shovel, you'll know that all you need to do is change your hand placement. Shoveling is all about the hand placement. You can still get them up in the air.
Attached Files
File Type: rpl trial 1.rpl (22.0 KB, 195 views)
File Type: rpl trial 2.rpl (38.5 KB, 97 views)
File Type: rpl trial 3.rpl (30.3 KB, 102 views)
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #19
fat0ninja
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You forgot to add that everyone hates you if you shovel.
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Old Jan 20, 2010   #20
Sinistah
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Originally Posted by Huck View Post
This comment is for the Quick Kick:
I see what you mean about the 50/50 chance that you'll get them out of the ring by the SECOND turn. (Trial 1)

Then I kind of see what you mean by the 90% chance about screwing up the shovel and "drastically" changing strategies. (Trial 2)

HOWEVER, if you truly know how to shovel, you'll know that all you need to do is change your hand placement. Shoveling is all about the hand placement. You can still get them up in the air.

Would you mind if I used the replays you provided in the main post? They're all very accurate.
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