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Old Aug 17, 2018   #1
WeppetKo
 
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Different tutorial approach, sponsoring streamers and disabling hotkeys for beginners
So, while watching this ConCon's video, a couple of ideas came to my mind.

Tutorial Overhaul

I know it's already been remade somewhere in the past but I still think it fails to deliver what Toribash is about. I played it all again to see what it focuses on and it's strictly about gameplay. If this game was only gameplay it wouldn't been dying, but dead since 2010 probably.

What I'm suggesting is taking it with a different approach: keep the gameplay tutorial obviously, since it's necessary, but press a lot on the community aspects. That means a general look at what Toribash can offer, like bet servers, the market, duels, tournaments, clans, customization, the possibility of drawing buying and selling your own textures (this isn't obvious at all, I've seen newer players wondering about it ingame), the whole forum and all of the events from ES squad. And more that I can't think about right now.

That would be a lot of info to soak in the first time, but I think that a simple, direct tutorial video with a voice explanation would be great and effective (i suggest Solax's voice). Toribash is so much more than just plain matches in a lobby and I'm sure that more than at least 90% players that tried the game never knew about it.

Sponsor streamers

Bare with me now, I have no knowledge whatsoever about how this works. I'll just throw this idea in, if you know more about the topic your opinion would be appreciated.

What I have in mind is sponsoring twitch streamers to play the game. Streamers have an huge influence on gaming community and having toribash as an highly streamed game would bring a lot of people here. At the moment there is simply not enough of that, we have a few fellow streamers but no matter how much effort it's hard to even reach 5 total viewers. Toribash seems to be invisible outside of here.

A streamer that plays toribash has the potential of bringing hundreds of players to make an account if he even just asks them to join his server to play during the stream, since it's free to play. Yes, I'm aware that many of them probably wouldn't open the game ever again, but some may like it and stick to it. Combined with my previous suggestion it could bring some change to the state of the game.

Problem: it requires money for the sponsor and it's obviously completely up to the developers to see if that's affordable or not, i have no idea about how much you'd need to pay neither how much money they actually make out of the game. It could very well just be counterproductive.

Another small beginner friendly idea: not feeling like making a new thread for this, but I came up with this yesterday after watching a stream of a new player. There are currently a lot of shortcuts that at the beginning you don't know about, so this guy was playing and accidentally clicked "2", activating the free mode cam. He didn't know how to fix it and started hitting random keys messing stuff up. In the end he had to restart the game while raging.

Now imagine a player that isn't streaming and tries for the first time the game on his own, he might very well just say "Screw this buggy game" and quit. What I'm suggesting is an option, by default activated, that disables all shortcuts except the most basic ones like movement. Newer players wouldn't use them anyways, since they don't know about their existance, and if in need they could activate them from the options menu.
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Last edited by WeppetKo; Aug 22, 2018 at 04:30 PM..
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Old Aug 18, 2018   #2
>Smaguris
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Tutorials
Tutorial Overhaul was attempted at least several times, but it crumbled every time due to how much effort it actually requires. Staff has to write scenarios, do storyboards/moodboards, and all that has to be good enough to replace the old tutorial. Most staff are not committed enough to spend hours of their time doing something like that, especially because you can't even be sure if it will ever be implemented or if it will fail like all the other times.

The furthest we've ever gotten is scenarios, but it just stopped there because literally no one is willing to sit there for hours thinking of engaging storyline and writing it at the same time, just too much work for unpaid position.


Streams
Generally people will only start watching a certain streamer judging on what games they play. Only the biggest streamers can attract attention by playing any game they want. And generally you won't get a popular streamer to play your game unless you pay a 5 digit sum.

If a streamer is not popular, then by streaming an unpopular game he won't get any audience growth whatsoever, meaning it's pretty much useless for them to stream it in the first place.
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Old Aug 18, 2018   #3
…Solax
 
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Originally Posted by WeppetKo View Post
That would be a lot of info to soak in the first time, but I think that a simple, direct tutorial video with a voice explanation would be great and effective (i suggest Solax's voice).


I'm always down for stuff like this. If someone sends me a script I'll send you a recording.
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Old Aug 18, 2018   #4
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Originally Posted by Solax View Post
I'm always down for stuff like this. If someone sends me a script I'll send you a recording.

maybe more efforts with publishing Toribash Channel would be really good. If he ^ is down for it and someone can take responsibility for the editing, maybe more videos like that (and videos like ConCon makes) could bring more interested faces to the community/game.

Toribash has a lot more to avail in Youtube context. Channels like Mocucha's, ConCon's and this one also had good payback in my opinion. There's the Matarika's channel that also is emerging, so that makes me think it would work.

Maybe focusing more in videos in generall would bring some good result to the game popularity aspect, even better if there were a lot of videos directed towards newbie community
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Old Aug 19, 2018   #5
WeppetKo
 
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Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
Tutorials
Tutorial Overhaul was attempted at least several times, but it crumbled every time due to how much effort it actually requires. Staff has to write scenarios, do storyboards/moodboards, and all that has to be good enough to replace the old tutorial. Most staff are not committed enough to spend hours of their time doing something like that, especially because you can't even be sure if it will ever be implemented or if it will fail like all the other times.

The furthest we've ever gotten is scenarios, but it just stopped there because literally no one is willing to sit there for hours thinking of engaging storyline and writing it at the same time, just too much work for unpaid position.

Isn't the tutorial included in devs' job or at least something worth getting paid for? For a normal game it doesn't even come from the community (yes Toribash is one of a kind). As Lionet said there are some very good video makers in the community, with an adequate prize and a little team working on it I'm sure the result would be great. Obviously they'd need to be paid, I mean the tutorial isn't a marginal aspect of the game since the first impression for a player is huge. But then again, I don't know how much Nabi can afford to pay.

Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
Streams
Generally people will only start watching a certain streamer judging on what games they play. Only the biggest streamers can attract attention by playing any game they want. And generally you won't get a popular streamer to play your game unless you pay a 5 digit sum.

Define popular. How many viewers on a daily basis? Are you making these numbers up or do you know it for a fact?

Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
If a streamer is not popular, then by streaming an unpopular game he won't get any audience growth whatsoever, meaning it's pretty much useless for them to stream it in the first place.

Depends what the streamer is known for. If a small streamer has a certain number of viewers on daily basis because he tries new and unknown games then chances are that it won't be a problem for him to play Toribash too.

Originally Posted by Solax View Post
I'm always down for stuff like this. If someone sends me a script I'll send you a recording.

It's great man, I really hope this goes somewhere.
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Old Aug 19, 2018   #6
>Smaguris
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Originally Posted by WeppetKo View Post
Isn't the tutorial included in devs' job or at least something worth getting paid for? For a normal game it doesn't even come from the community (yes Toribash is one of a kind). As Lionet said there are some very good video makers in the community, with an adequate prize and a little team working on it I'm sure the result would be great. Obviously they'd need to be paid, I mean the tutorial isn't a marginal aspect of the game since the first impression for a player is huge. But then again, I don't know how much Nabi can afford to pay.

That's the thing, nabi is not willing to pay for any projects regarding TB. They have couple of devs in paid positions, but devs are there to implement ideas more than to create and plan them. Sir said it himself that if there are people who make the plans and scenarios and everything else, he doesn't mind implementing them.

The hardest part is writing these plans, and for one or couple of devs that can be quite a lackluster since it is very hard to come up with engaging story on your own. If Nabi decided to pay X amount of money to a team for successfully implementing a project, you would be seeing way more improvements to Toribash, but it won't happen, partially due to the fact that TB Next is on its way of being released, and TB devs are used to having volunteer staff do everything for free.

Originally Posted by WeppetKo View Post
Define popular. How many viewers on a daily basis? Are you making these numbers up or do you know it for a fact?

To me popular is having over 1000 viewers throughout the stream (meaning views count never falls below 1000). I know it for a fact, and I'm not even considering the fact that 90% of the popular streamers don't agree to paid promotions, so the numbers are quite positive at that.

Originally Posted by WeppetKo View Post
Depends what the streamer is known for. If a small streamer has a certain number of viewers on daily basis because he tries new and unknown games then chances are that it won't be a problem for him to play Toribash too.

The thing is, that doesn't really exist. Most streamers who do different game every time usually have some sort of genre in mind, and since TB doesn't fit into any obvious genre it would be hard to even pitch it to someone. Also keep in mind that most streamers play most popular games to maximise potential viewers, there are not many that chose to play random indie games.

A streamer that agrees to stream an unpopular game will obviously expect a fat check for that since it doesn't bring any other gain for them.

Last edited by Smaguris; Aug 19, 2018 at 04:39 PM..
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Old Aug 20, 2018   #7
WeppetKo
 
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Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
That's the thing, nabi is not willing to pay for any projects regarding TB. They have couple of devs in paid positions, but devs are there to implement ideas more than to create and plan them. Sir said it himself that if there are people who make the plans and scenarios and everything else, he doesn't mind implementing them.

The hardest part is writing these plans, and for one or couple of devs that can be quite a lackluster since it is very hard to come up with engaging story on your own. If Nabi decided to pay X amount of money to a team for successfully implementing a project, you would be seeing way more improvements to Toribash, but it won't happen, partially due to the fact that TB Next is on its way of being released, and TB devs are used to having volunteer staff do everything for free.

If the devs spend money to get a menu done, why shouldn't they do it for a tutorial if they decide to make one? Aren't these all essential components that are part of the game? Right now they are focused on TB Next, how will that tutorial be made? By the community? This game is not beginner friendly at all, it's one of TB's biggest weaknesses, the tutorial should be a main feature to get right.

Not arguing against you, I'm just saying what comes to my mind.

Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
To me popular is having over 1000 viewers throughout the stream (meaning views count never falls below 1000). I know it for a fact, and I'm not even considering the fact that 90% of the popular streamers don't agree to paid promotions, so the numbers are quite positive at that.

The thing is, that doesn't really exist. Most streamers who do different game every time usually have some sort of genre in mind, and since TB doesn't fit into any obvious genre it would be hard to even pitch it to someone. Also keep in mind that most streamers play most popular games to maximise potential viewers, there are not many that chose to play random indie games.

A streamer that agrees to stream an unpopular game will obviously expect a fat check for that since it doesn't bring any other gain for them.

Are we talking about streams over a long period of time or just one stream?
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Last edited by WeppetKo; Aug 20, 2018 at 12:22 AM..
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Old Aug 20, 2018   #8
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If the devs spend money to get a menu done, why shouldn't they do it for a tutorial if they decide to make one? Aren't these all essential components that are part of the game? Right now they are focused on TB Next, how will that tutorial be made? By the community? This game is not beginner friendly at all, it's one of TB's biggest weaknesses, the tutorial should be a main feature to get right.

Tutorials got received an update several years ago with further minor updates earlier this year + we added comeback practice. Main reason why there's no tutorial overhaul is because literally nobody knows what to cover there. Current tutorial is focused on explaining main controls and showing off some features of the game, that's enough to introduce the user to the game.


We didn't update menu just because we wanted to spend time/money on some new fancy looks, that was done due to the major change in Toribash's UI logics. Old menus were all hardcoded and while being super simple their code was more lengthy and wonky than actual game-related code. Now they're written in Lua which allows to boost development process as devs are working on their own things with more frequent functional updates as a result. Dranix works on game server code and game client backend, I do game frontend and php coding.


There are plans for proper tutorials both for TBN and Toribash, they'll come when they're closer to top in our priority list. See ConCon's challenge mode videos to get a grasp of how it'd look. That was discussed several months ago in discord channel and he decided to make some videos to see how people would react to the idea.


P.S. The issue with "Nabi not willing to pay for work" is not because we're greedy / poor / whatever, that's because if you want to get paid we'd expect you to actually work. We had non-developer workers before and it doesn't really work out. There obviously were some exceptions, but generally there's not much work for non-devs to do because they either drop out on their own or just don't know what to do after they finish their original project.
If you have some extraordinary and original plan for tutorials / other game features and want to work for Nabi, feel free to pitch it to hampa or me and send a CV (that's how I got in, so it's clearly possible).

Last edited by sir; Aug 20, 2018 at 09:06 AM..
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Old Aug 20, 2018   #9
WeppetKo
 
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First of all, thank you very much sir for the explanative answer.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
Tutorials got received an update several years ago with further minor updates earlier this year + we added comeback practice

I've tried the comback practice more than once and it's actually a great tool, but for more experienced players. I can't picture in my head someone that just picked up the game trying that challenge, they'd more likely think: "Why do I need to do this when I can just go and fight like in the tutorial?"

Originally Posted by sir View Post
Main reason why there's no tutorial overhaul is because literally nobody knows what to cover there. Current tutorial is focused on explaining main controls and showing off some features of the game, that's enough to introduce the user to the game.

"Nobody knows what to cover there", this thread is exactly dedicated to that. I was suggesting how picking up different topics, rather than just gameplay, could introduce new players to a more well rounded idea of Toribash and its community. I feel like a well made 2-3 mins long video showing the features, that I mentioned in the op, with a voice over would be effective.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
We didn't update menu just because we wanted to spend time/money on some new fancy looks, that was done due to the major change in Toribash's UI logics. Old menus were all hardcoded and while being super simple their code was more lengthy and wonky than actual game-related code. Now they're written in Lua which allows to boost development process as devs are working on their own things with more frequent functional updates as a result. Dranix works on game server code and game client backend, I do game frontend and php coding.

I've no complaints about menus, I mentioned them only since they are another game feature. I just needed an example.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
There are plans for proper tutorials both for TBN and Toribash, they'll come when they're closer to top in our priority list. See ConCon's challenge mode videos to get a grasp of how it'd look. That was discussed several months ago in discord channel and he decided to make some videos to see how people would react to the idea.

I've watched a couple of these videos, but I'm not sure I get how they'd be associated with an eventual tutorial. Are you suggesting a series of easy challenges for players to pass that are introduced with that kind of videos? If that's the case it could potantially work very well, but it's still missing the point of this thread: gameplay tutorials are great and necessary, that's obvious, but gameplay isn't the only thing that Toribash provides and newer players don't know about it because you usually discover a lot of stuff once you have played for some months. I mean I personally spent the first 1000-2000 games on this account playing judofrac on quick servers not knowing about forums, clans and so much other stuff.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
P.S. The issue with "Nabi not willing to pay for work" is not because we're greedy / poor / whatever, that's because if you want to get paid we'd expect you to actually work. We had non-developer workers before and it doesn't really work out. There obviously were some exceptions, but generally there's not much work for non-devs to do because they either drop out on their own or just don't know what to do after they finish their original project.
If you have some extraordinary and original plan for tutorials / other game features and want to work for Nabi, feel free to pitch it to hampa or me and send a CV (that's how I got in, so it's clearly possible).

Are you talking about a stable job with a salary or a one time commission? Because making a tutorial would be the latter one. Anyways thanks for making it clear.

I've no experience in tutorial/video making, so an empty CV wouldn't achieve much.
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Old Aug 21, 2018   #10
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Hey cool didnt see this thread until now, am currently trying to put together potential tutorial ideas with a focus on progressive learning of the game to go from SP to basic MP.

Im watching this thread now.
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