Originally Posted by Flow
The root of terrorism being the terrorist organizations currently operating out of the middle east. Like I've said previously, a lot of domestic terrorism is cause by the children of immigrants from countries that those terrorist organizations operate out of. Just because something isn't the cause of the main problem doesn't mean it isn't still a problem.
There is also domestic terrorism that is not based around Islam. In 2015 a gunman opened fire outside a Planned Parenthood and killed 3 people, injured 9 others. This man had no association with Islam, he was anti-abortion and decided shooting up Planned Parenthood would promote his viewpoint. In 2016 a sniper killed 5 police officers and injured 10 others because he believed law enforcement was discriminating against blacks and deserved to be shot. The reasons terrorism is committed are varied and not isolated to Islam. As such, claiming that the root of terrorism is from organizations in the Middle East is objectively wrong.
Originally Posted by Flow
I live in Canada, one of the most multicultural societies in the world. I've seen it first-hand, if immigrants have the option to stay in a community with their own they will, almost every time. This removes the need to integrate into the host society and will essentially turn into a micro-nation within the country they are residing in. See any Chinatown for an example of this.
I lived in Canada for 16 years. I've seen it firsthand too. Holding on to your home culture is not inherently a bad thing, and serves as a way to acclimate immigrants into the broader culture. Plus, you have no idea how wrong you think these communities effect integration. Reason why I say this? I'm a second generation immigrant. I've literally lived through it. And you know what? I'd say I'm pretty damn well integrated into society. Who cares if my favorite foods are all ethnic, or that I eat better with chopsticks instead of a fork and knife, or that I participate in cultural events native to my parent's country of origin? I still function in society as well as the next person. What I can say is that an immigrant community serves as a way for the first generation of immigrants to not have major culture shock by establishing a bastion of people in similar circumstance who can provide a support network for everyone else.
Also, Chinatown is literally the product of Chinese immigrants turning what would otherwise be a slum into an area to conduct business. The entire front of any Chinatown is always dressed up to look more exotic for the sole purpose of attracting non-Asian people in for business.
Originally Posted by Flow
I'm not saying that the cause of the war was good, I'm saying that making amends for it by committing cultural suicide is idiotic and ineffective.
Cultural suicide? Do you honestly have such little faith in your Western culture? The UN said in 2016 that there's ~65 million refugees in the entire world. The entire population of the U.S. is ~318 million. Even including the ~43 million immigrants that currently live in the U.S., and assuming that every foreign-born person has the same culture, the native population would still outnumber the foreign-born population two to one. With these numbers, do you still believe Western culture would die in the face of accepting refugees? No offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about here.
Originally Posted by Flow
What the fuck are you talking about. I said nothing about radical Islam in what you're quoting, it was a general statement. Terrorists commit acts of terror because they hate the country they're terrorizing, and hating someone for trying to preserve themselves is petty and illogical.
Definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
So no, terrorism is not conducted because "they hate the country they're terrorizing". Terrorism is conducted to push for political changes through violent coercion. Hate doesn't even need to exist for terrorism to occur.
Also, let's be clear. "Hating someone for trying to preserve themselves is petty and illogical" means you're admitting you're being petty and illogical. Refugees are trying to escape war. They are trying to preserve themselves. Yet you will punish them for the crimes of the very people they are trying to escape from. As such, you are punishing people for trying to preserve themselves. At least hating someone is still in the realm of thought, actually punishing them for it takes it into action. Arguably, that should make you worse than being petty and illogical.
Originally Posted by Flow
If they won't listen to reason there, what makes you think they'll listen to reason here?
Because it's not reason you're peddling. It's fear. You are afraid of death, they are actively escaping from it. To say that you won't let them escape from the actual threat of death because you fear the possibility of death is not reason. It's panic.
Originally Posted by Flow
Moderate Muslims here does nothing to attack the root of the problem there. Do you think ISIS cares about what an Americanized Muslim thinks is the correct interpretation of the Quran? Not fucking likely.
As I've mentioned above, it's fairly obvious the root of terrorism is not in the Middle East because terrorism is not localized to any one location. Until you understand what terrorism fundamentally means, you will never understand the true scope of the problem.
Terrorism happens when somebody becomes desperate to get political change enacted. The moderates of today can become the radicals of tomorrow if they're forced into such desperation. Al-Qaeda was born from the U.S. purging Iraq of it's Sunni government, causing thousands of moderate Sunnis to lose everything. These moderates became radicalized and became the bulk of Al-Qaeda. And from within Al-Qaeda, another group radicalized even further. This group would see the conflict in Syria when al-Assad gassed his own citizens and see opportunity to recruit. They moved from Iraq into Syria, radicalized moderates in Syria, and became the Islamic State. Islam was never the cause of radicalization, it was misfortune providing the opportunity to give a person who had lost everything a reason. Keeping moderates in such an environment creates this opportunity.
Originally Posted by Flow
Um, yes, we are. Kill the terrorists = you win.
If you believe it's impossible to separate a terrorist from a refugee through interviews and background checks, how can you be sure you'll kill all the terrorists unless you kill all the refugees? After all, you'll have even less to work with to separate the two.
Your positions are mutually exclusive unless you want to be a genocidal maniac, so you have to come to terms with one or the other. Either it's possible to separate refugee from terrorist, in which case a travel ban is not necessary, or you do not need to kill the terrorists to beat terrorism.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
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Originally Posted by Oracle
There is also domestic terrorism that is not based around Islam. In 2015 a gunman opened fire outside a Planned Parenthood and killed 3 people, injured 9 others. This man had no association with Islam, he was anti-abortion and decided shooting up Planned Parenthood would promote his viewpoint. In 2016 a sniper killed 5 police officers and injured 10 others because he believed law enforcement was discriminating against blacks and deserved to be shot. The reasons terrorism is committed are varied and not isolated to Islam. As such, claiming that the root of terrorism is from organizations in the Middle East is objectively wrong.
Could you stop being purposely obtuse? I was talking about non-domestic terrorism, and the main source of that is organizations in the Middle East.
Originally Posted by Oracle
I lived in Canada for 16 years. I've seen it firsthand too. Holding on to your home culture is not inherently a bad thing, and serves as a way to acclimate immigrants into the broader culture. Plus, you have no idea how wrong you think these communities effect integration. Reason why I say this? I'm a second generation immigrant. I've literally lived through it. And you know what? I'd say I'm pretty damn well integrated into society. Who cares if my favorite foods are all ethnic, or that I eat better with chopsticks instead of a fork and knife, or that I participate in cultural events native to my parent's country of origin? I still function in society as well as the next person. What I can say is that an immigrant community serves as a way for the first generation of immigrants to not have major culture shock by establishing a bastion of people in similar circumstance who can provide a support network for everyone else.
Many immigrants can't speak English after living here for more than a decade. There's a difference between immigrants from the banned countries and everywhere else too: those countries are all governed by Sharia Law, which is not compatible with western society. If they are allowed to form insular groups within a society they will want their own customs to take precedence over the country they are living in.
Originally Posted by Oracle
Also, Chinatown is literally the product of Chinese immigrants turning what would otherwise be a slum into an area to conduct business. The entire front of any Chinatown is always dressed up to look more exotic for the sole purpose of attracting non-Asian people in for business.
"A Chinatown, as a "Chinese enclave", is defined as "... any small, distinct area or [Chinese] group enclosed or isolated within a larger [Non-Chinese] group." The development of most Chinatowns typically start with mass migration to an area having zero or very few Chinese. The most notable example is San Francisco's Chinatown caused by the California Gold Rush of the mid 1800s and a more modern example occurring in Montville, Connecticut caused by the displacement of Chinese workers in New York's Chinatown in Manhattan following the September 11th attacks in 2001."
Originally Posted by Oracle
Cultural suicide? Do you honestly have such little faith in your Western culture? The UN said in 2016 that there's ~65 million refugees in the entire world. The entire population of the U.S. is ~318 million. Even including the ~43 million immigrants that currently live in the U.S., and assuming that every foreign-born person has the same culture, the native population would still outnumber the foreign-born population two to one. With these numbers, do you still believe Western culture would die in the face of accepting refugees? No offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about here.
One of the main reasons the Roman fucking Empire fell was because of immigrants forming insular societies with no loyalty to the population in which they were residing. A sudden 50% increase of people all sharing a common will imposed on a varied democratic population will sway the government vastly in favour of the new demographic.
Originally Posted by Oracle
Definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
So no, terrorism is not conducted because "they hate the country they're terrorizing". Terrorism is conducted to push for political changes through violent coercion. Hate doesn't even need to exist for terrorism to occur.
Maybe not by definition, but a lot of foreign terrorist have been conditioned to hate western society. Don't be pedantic.
Originally Posted by Oracle
Also, let's be clear. "Hating someone for trying to preserve themselves is petty and illogical" means you're admitting you're being petty and illogical. Refugees are trying to escape war. They are trying to preserve themselves. Yet you will punish them for the crimes of the very people they are trying to escape from. As such, you are punishing people for trying to preserve themselves. At least hating someone is still in the realm of thought, actually punishing them for it takes it into action. Arguably, that should make you worse than being petty and illogical.
Not even a comparison, I never said I hated refugees. Don't strawman me. I'm not punishing people for trying to preserve themselves, am I suddenly going around executing people applying for asylum?
Originally Posted by Oracle
Because it's not reason you're peddling. It's fear. You are afraid of death, they are actively escaping from it. To say that you won't let them escape from the actual threat of death because you fear the possibility of death is not reason. It's panic.
Preservation of self comes before any kind of outward assistance, that's pretty obvious. What obligation do I have to help a group of people that accepted the existence of these terrorists to the point of being turned on?
Originally Posted by Oracle
As I've mentioned above, it's fairly obvious the root of terrorism is not in the Middle East because terrorism is not localized to any one location. Until you understand what terrorism fundamentally means, you will never understand the true scope of the problem.
The main source of global terrorism in the world today is pretty definitively the Middle East, what are you talking about?
Originally Posted by Oracle
Terrorism happens when somebody becomes desperate to get political change enacted. The moderates of today can become the radicals of tomorrow if they're forced into such desperation. Al-Qaeda was born from the U.S. purging Iraq of it's Sunni government, causing thousands of moderate Sunnis to lose everything. These moderates became radicalized and became the bulk of Al-Qaeda. And from within Al-Qaeda, another group radicalized even further. This group would see the conflict in Syria when al-Assad gassed his own citizens and see opportunity to recruit. They moved from Iraq into Syria, radicalized moderates in Syria, and became the Islamic State. Islam was never the cause of radicalization, it was misfortune providing the opportunity to give a person who had lost everything a reason. Keeping moderates in such an environment creates this opportunity.
That's why you get rid of the source of the problem?
Originally Posted by Oracle
If you believe it's impossible to separate a terrorist from a refugee through interviews and background checks, how can you be sure you'll kill all the terrorists unless you kill all the refugees? After all, you'll have even less to work with to separate the two.
Dispose of the terrorist organization, wait and see if terrorism from that region stops, cautiously re-open immigration. If it starts again close borders and repeat. This isn't rocket science.
Originally Posted by Oracle
Your positions are mutually exclusive unless you want to be a genocidal maniac, so you have to come to terms with one or the other. Either it's possible to separate refugee from terrorist, in which case a travel ban is not necessary, or you do not need to kill the terrorists to beat terrorism.
No, see above.
Have fun in la-la-land where everything is perfect and no one kills anyone. Done "debating" you.
Originally Posted by Flow
Done "debating" you.
Good, saves me the trouble knowing you're done as well. It's clear you're entrenched in your position and have no inclination to change it.
History will ultimately be the judge as to which of us was right, and I'm confident that knee jerk xenophobic reactions will be relegated to the chapter of shame that they always find themselves in.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Hello, i'm not very fluent in political topics. but:
Liberals are progressive people are they not right? Want change, want new views and ideas to be accepted.
But then Donald Trump comes along, you can't get more different than that. He has some new ideas and new perspectives on things.
Liberals = Looking For New Different, Against many Traditional Views
Donald Trump= New, Different, Definitely not Traditional
yet we have Unhappy Liberals.
I myself am a Liberal. But like if you desire change, if you desire new things. That also means getting things that are vastly new/different like Trump sometimes. Liberals want different and they got different. Whining over it not being the kind of "different" you wanted is quite childish.
Trump is new and Different, as a liberal I am drawn towards New and Different.
I do not like Trump as a person. I do not like trump as a president.
But sometimes there are issues that arise in our country that despite how we feel, only a certain group or person seems to be qualified enough to fix. and that's Trump.
me, myself, i'm a more intellectual based person, emotion isn't something i like to give power to when making decisions. I believe you can change the world, change everything, with a good head on your shoulders, but this rioting garbage. I get it your mad, but america is spilled Milk, who knows if you can even ever clean it up, maybe not, but crying over it isn't solving anything. Fight for change with your mind, not your fists, not how "loud" you can get. How about you calm down and plan out how to clean up the milk, and then pour yourself another glass, your way.
Slavery or Sex trafficking is something worth rioting over.
Some guy in the white house being "mean" isn't.
I feel there will always be rioting Liberals until they've reached a level of happiness or satisfaction.
But throwing a temper tantrum until you get things your way is not how the world, the country, or even life works.
If there's something that trump did that you don't like, you can have your voice heard
without being destructive, irrationally emotional, or causing a mass panic or emotional response.
in conclusion. I Don't Mind Trump. After the current issues are fixed, i'll be ready for someone new definitely. Or if a relatively large amount time goes by and nothing has changed, definitely, but the dude just got elected, give it some time. and to Rioting Liberals i know you love to fight the powers that be, but take into consideration that thinking smart, controlling your emotions and being strategic will always make a bigger impact on the government (at the end) than an overly-emotional and loud ruckus. Thats just how modern America works.
ok i'm done lol
Liberals are progressive people are they not right? Want change, want new views and ideas to be accepted.
But then Donald Trump comes along, you can't get more different than that. He has some new ideas and new perspectives on things.
Liberals = Looking For New Different, Against many Traditional Views
Donald Trump= New, Different, Definitely not Traditional
yet we have Unhappy Liberals.
I myself am a Liberal. But like if you desire change, if you desire new things. That also means getting things that are vastly new/different like Trump sometimes. Liberals want different and they got different. Whining over it not being the kind of "different" you wanted is quite childish.
Trump is new and Different, as a liberal I am drawn towards New and Different.
I do not like Trump as a person. I do not like trump as a president.
But sometimes there are issues that arise in our country that despite how we feel, only a certain group or person seems to be qualified enough to fix. and that's Trump.
me, myself, i'm a more intellectual based person, emotion isn't something i like to give power to when making decisions. I believe you can change the world, change everything, with a good head on your shoulders, but this rioting garbage. I get it your mad, but america is spilled Milk, who knows if you can even ever clean it up, maybe not, but crying over it isn't solving anything. Fight for change with your mind, not your fists, not how "loud" you can get. How about you calm down and plan out how to clean up the milk, and then pour yourself another glass, your way.
Slavery or Sex trafficking is something worth rioting over.
Some guy in the white house being "mean" isn't.
I feel there will always be rioting Liberals until they've reached a level of happiness or satisfaction.
But throwing a temper tantrum until you get things your way is not how the world, the country, or even life works.
If there's something that trump did that you don't like, you can have your voice heard
without being destructive, irrationally emotional, or causing a mass panic or emotional response.
in conclusion. I Don't Mind Trump. After the current issues are fixed, i'll be ready for someone new definitely. Or if a relatively large amount time goes by and nothing has changed, definitely, but the dude just got elected, give it some time. and to Rioting Liberals i know you love to fight the powers that be, but take into consideration that thinking smart, controlling your emotions and being strategic will always make a bigger impact on the government (at the end) than an overly-emotional and loud ruckus. Thats just how modern America works.
ok i'm done lol
Last edited by matarika; Mar 12, 2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by matarika
Hello, i'm not very fluent in political topics. but:
Liberals are progressive people are they not right? Want change, want new views and ideas to be accepted.
But then Donald Trump comes along, you can't get more different than that. He has some new ideas and new perspectives on things.
Liberals = Looking For New Different, Against many Traditional Views
Donald Trump= New, Different, Definitely not Traditional
yet we have Unhappy Liberals.
I myself am a Liberal. But like if you desire change, if you desire new things. That also means getting things that are vastly new/different like Trump sometimes. Liberals want different and they got different. Whining over it not being the kind of "different" you wanted is quite childish.
Trump is new and Different, as a liberal I am drawn towards New and Different.
I do not like Trump as a person. I do not like trump as a president.
But sometimes there are issues that arise in our country that despite how we feel, only a certain group or person seems to be qualified enough to fix. and that's Trump.
me, myself, i'm a more intellectual based person, emotion isn't something i like to give power to when making decisions. I believe you can change the world, change everything, with a good head on your shoulders, but this rioting garbage. I get it your mad, but america is spilled Milk, who knows if you can even ever clean it up, maybe not, but crying over it isn't solving anything. Fight for change with your mind, not your fists, not how "loud" you can get. How about you calm down and plan out how to clean up the milk, and then pour yourself another glass, your way.
Slavery or Sex trafficking is something worth rioting over.
Some guy in the white house being "mean" isn't.
I feel there will always be rioting Liberals until they've reached a level of happiness or satisfaction.
But throwing a temper tantrum until you get things your way is not how the world, the country, or even life works.
If there's something that trump did that you don't like, you can have your voice heard
without being destructive, irrationally emotional, or causing a mass panic or emotional response.
in conclusion. I Don't Mind Trump. After the current issues are fixed, i'll be ready for someone new definitely. Or if a relatively large amount time goes by and nothing has changed, definitely, but the dude just got elected, give it some time. and to Rioting Liberals i know you love to fight the powers that be, but take into consideration that thinking smart, controlling your emotions and being strategic will always make a bigger impact on the government (at the end) than an overly-emotional and loud ruckus. Thats just how modern America works.
ok i'm done lol
What you define as liberal is not quite what matches up with being politically liberal or politically progressive.
Liberals don't necessarily like change, nor do progressives. While it is true that liberals are open to change, they are also defined by the willingness to shun traditional values. While Trump is definitely not a normal politician, and is thus a change, a lot of his political ideology is an attempt to return to the past, or a return to traditional values. As such, while Trump is definitely a change in the political establishment, his platform is predominantly conservative. Which is why a lot of liberals and progressives are not happy with him in office, since they view a lot of his political actions as steps backwards.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
