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Old Nov 10, 2015   #1
Solax
 
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Payments outside of Toribash and you
Hi everyone, this is a definitive guide that I decided to write up in order to collect all of the current policy, rules and information about deals regarding things that are not tc or items (so stuff like paypal sales, steam cards etc etc - these will be called "other payment forms" for the sake of this thread). This comes after a recent bout of supposed steam card sales where some nasty scams could have easily been prevented by better trading practice and where victims were unaware of to what degree we supported such incidents. I also realised that our policy for this in practice is not listed anywhere past this thread and allows a degree of interpretation and ambiguity.

Because of that I decided to make this thread so that the rules regarding such sales are completely clear and you know exactly what to expect in regards to support from us if you get scammed.

Other payment forms
As I said above, this includes anything that is not tc or items. Paypal, other electronic money transfers, steam cards, giftcards, steam items etc etc all fall under this banner. As long as these payment forms don't have their own rules explicitly disallowing you from trading with them then, then as no rule here disallows it either, you are free to trade with these things at your own risk.
Since these payment forms are external from Toribash we have no control over verification of them or enforcing transfers of them.

Support for other payment forms
If you decide to use these payment forms then protected PayPal (not the one where you send as a gift) is the suggested method as it has a chargeback mechanic that you can use if you get scammed. Read more about that under the "Preventing Scams" section here.

Generally you will get very limited support if you get scammed while using other payment methods. The most we will be able to refund to you from cases such as these will be from using tc and items that the scammer may have on their account or obvious alts/banks up to the value of the money you lost. If they have no items or tc, or have disposed of it before we get there then that is too bad - these things will not be generated back for you. Because of this we strongly suggest that you use common sense and precautions if you really most use other payment methods.

(Note that the marketsquad holds no liability for getting to scams after items and tc have been disposed of where, if they had gotten to it earlier, they would have been able to save more assets. We handles scams as quickly as we can but make no promise of how quickly this is. We are volunteers and are prone to real life happenings and other priorities. The best thing you can do is to not get scammed in the first place.)

Support for other payment methods where you are a third party to a scam
This scenario happens less often but after a recent occurrence we figured it'd be good to put here.
Here's the scenario:
User A is the scammer and makes a deal with unsuspecting user B.
User B agrees to the deal and sends his half of the deal. User A doesn't send their half.
User A now goes on to sell the stuff they just received to User C - a third party who thinks they are making a normal legitimate deal. They sell it to them in exchange for some other payment method.
User A now has payment in some external form from Toribash. User C now has User B's items. User B now has nothing.

In a normal case where only tc is exchanged it is easy for us to reverse the transactions so that Users B and C get their stuff back and the scammer is left with nothing. However when people engage in these trades with other payment methods (normally nonrefundable or reversible stuff like steam trades) we can't follow our normal procedure.

What will happen in cases like this where User C can't reverse their payment to User A, the scammer:
Half of the items will be sent to User B, the original owner, and half will be left with User C, the third party. This is not an ideal solution since both parties still lose out in half. But we justify this because neither party is completely without fault. User B managed to get themselves scammed. User C failed to use a reversible payment method or some form of payment with protection.

In summary:
If for some reason you really want to trade for stuff that isn't tc or items then make sure you only use paypal with buyer protection that you can charge back if necessary.

Cases where we will consider generating all or portions of your lost assets back
Despite all of the above, there are times when we will support - in full or in part - a scam incident where other payments have been used.
This occurs only in situations where you have done a deal with a longstanding and trusted member of the community who has no or very little history of scams and market breaches and where this sort of incident was not expected at all. This is judged by the marketsquad and if you wish to get our opinion on a user's trustworthiness in relation to other payment methods then we offer this service. Please note that our advice will always be to not engage in trades with other payment methods but if you still wish to proceed then we can try our best to make sure you are as informed as possible.

The amount of support that we will offer will depend on the circumstances of the case and include things such as the character of the user in question with regard to the above, the amount of risk you have taken, the precaution(s) you have taken and any other details we feel should be taken into account.

Application of these rules and policies in practice
The above information applies to whenever other payment methods are used in Toribash. So it can apply to anything from sales in the items board to duels.

Tips for scam prevention
This thread is an excellent resource on scam prevention and I advise you all to read it.

Additional tips for deal with other payment methods specifically:
  1. Don't do deals with other payment methods if you don't have to
  2. Make use of this service
  3. Don't engage in deals with other payment methods with new accounts even if they have supposedly done deals with other community members recently without issue. These are often alts made by scammers and should be trusted at your own risk. Also remember the situations discussed above for when we will generate back lost assets. If an account is new and has limited history we will very likely not support you.
  4. Use common sense. If a deal seems too good to be true then it probably is.

I'll leave this thread open to allow for questions. I won't be speaking about the basis for why we choose to do it this way (past the short explanation following) as I think that's fairly straightforward - pretty much we want to promote user awareness and active precaution. We believe that if you take disproportionate risks and engage in sketchy trades then it is not our job to fix you back up. This is the same stance we take on loan scams. We believe that you should have the freedom to these things if you want and we aim to keep you as well informed as we can and to support scams only in fair and reasonable circumstances.

Thanks for reading. I hope it has given you a bit of an insight into how these sorts of cases are dealt with and how you can stay safe.

Last edited by Solax; Feb 15, 2016 at 02:55 AM.. Reason: new scenario
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Old Nov 10, 2015   #2
TheCarlosR
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First of all nj and thanks for the information

Question

There will be a way to restrict the purchase of items with other payment methods?
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Old Nov 10, 2015   #3
SrBognanno
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No Carlos.

There IS restrict payment methods that no are eith TC or Items.
•[Crooks]FanClubReplays
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Old Nov 10, 2015   #4
Kloppzilla
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There are not restrictions at all, the only thing he is saying is that they can't give support of tradings aside from tc or toribash items hence you are basically alone when trading steam cards for real money or stuff like that.
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Old Nov 12, 2015   #5
Pimp
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So if the user who scammed you let's say duels all the tc away what's stopping you guys from just undoing that duel and getting the tc back? It's not their tc they basically stole it and what's to say that was said persons plan to get tc he got from scamming and use it all in a bet server/ duel it all away to a friend and as the "staff" of this game you don't think that this system is flawed at all? If there isn't a chance of getting all the tc back from a scam why even allow those type of transactions or even claim to cover them at all? I mean I could buy tc from several people and ask them to send first of course and then take the tc a duel it to a friend or several and you guy wouldn't be able to recover the tc or even have someone put a bunch of items up in the market for more than what they go for and transfer the tc that way... You say they could have been avoided but as the consumer should we really have to be on the look out for scams? the rules for this seem to be a little bit of coverage but not fully when it could just be full coverage or none at all. being halfway is a bit misleading.

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Old Nov 12, 2015   #6
Jack
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Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
.

Well that's the thing, anybody could scam others easily such as dueling it to a friend. But the staff (probably) has no way of taking it away from the person who got the tc. Because all they would have to say is: "I don't know him (I knew him in the past)/ We dueled, and i won, it's my tc". And with that, the staffs hands are tied. I believe in the past, there were close to none trades/deals going from toribash valuables to real life money (when they did happen it probably went through friends and people they know well).

And scamming can go the other way too. A person who has purchased steam gift cards could report a person for giving false codes. Just by adding the money on an alternative steam account, they could make a false report of the code not working, in which case the person who sold the card would be accused.

All in all, you shouldn't trade with people you don't know, and you shouldn't trade big amounts of money at the same time.



My question: As pimp and i've just said, there are many ways of these trades going wrong. And i predict that there will be plenty of scams and a lot of unhappy people. So will this trade ever be banned? As in, would it be banned for the market thread, and the staff will not take any responsibility for any scams that happen. So it wouldn't be illegal, just that it would be "do at your own risk" sort of a thing (more of a "the staff will turn their backs on this thing)?
Because this seems like a waste of the staff's time, due to most of it being impossible to [solve]
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Last edited by Jack; Nov 12, 2015 at 06:20 PM.. Reason: Adding the reason i posted 1 hour after i post is top kekles
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Old Nov 12, 2015   #7
Pimp
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Originally Posted by Kikipro View Post
Staff will never generate TC, unless it's under certain circumstances, as stated:




The whole point of this thread is to try and PREVENT those from happening.
To simply prevent the scam from happening, make sure the other person is sending the items/TC first, or simply do a safe trade.

Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would send the TC they are selling to a person they don't know.

Staff has no control over paypal transcations.




Afterall, it is kinda your fault if you do it.
You can also ask a marketsquad to check the background of a user by PMing one, don't forget this is only used for deals that involve real money.


You should know that scams happen everywhere, and you SHOULD be on a lookout for them.
Real life deal scams, internet in general, and a lot of other games besides toribash.


I took out the stuff from the threads solax stated in his post, and all of those were basically cut-outs from his guide and the Thorn's guide for scam reports.
None of this is my input, I just c/ped what Solax wrote above, if I understood something incorrectly, feel free to delete this post.
I have no previous knowledge over this stuff, so it's likely to be incorrect.





How would this help anyone, except killing the market and tc flow?


I took out the stuff from the threads solax stated in his post, and all of those were basically cut-outs from his guide and the Thorn's guide for scam reports.
None of this is my input, I just c/ped what Solax wrote above, if I accidentally understood something incorrectly, feel free to delete this post.
I have no previous knowledge over this stuff, so it's likely to be incorrect.

You didn't really get half of the things I said so I hard to respond to anything you typed so I'm just not going to
-----
Also new question if you get scammed and the tc wasn't recovered this gives you the right to scam the person that scammed you correct as long as it's not over what was lost

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Last edited by Pimp; Nov 12, 2015 at 05:11 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old Nov 13, 2015   #8
Solax
 
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Thanks for the great questions, I'll try my best to reply to all the points raised.

Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
So if the user who scammed you let's say duels all the tc away what's stopping you guys from just undoing that duel and getting the tc back?

The complication is because now a/multiple other third parties are involved. If other users have engaged in duels with the scammer who is using scam-obtained tc then the other innocent user is still engaging in a risk by dueling. It's not fair to them to go through their duels and void/revert any done with scammed tc. It's also cleaner and neater to just draw the line this way.

Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
It's not their tc they basically stole it and what's to say that was said persons plan to get tc he got from scamming and use it all in a bet server/ duel it all away to a friend and as the "staff" of this game you don't think that this system is flawed at all?

I mean I could buy tc from several people and ask them to send first of course and then take the tc a duel it to a friend or several and you guy wouldn't be able to recover the tc or even have someone put a bunch of items up in the market for more than what they go for and transfer the tc that way...

In cases where tc or items that have been scammed have been subject to bets, duels or transfers we look into the accounts that are involved to try to find any patterns like this.
In cases where scams occur I'd hope they are mainly happening from longterm and established accounts and not new accounts or alts. Because of this and because scam incidents are tracked and punishments increase dramatically each time a user scams, it would be extremely difficult and ineffective for a user to coordinate with their friends to make a lot of tc or items this way through these laundering methods. And even if they managed to do it we would most likely catch on before too long.

Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
If there isn't a chance of getting all the tc back from a scam why even allow those type of transactions or even claim to cover them at all?

A while ago we considered just straight up banning a lot of these sorts of things but it came down to the fact that people will just do it anyway. So since that is what will happen the next best thing to do is to just promote awareness and information and provide support in what circumstances and capacity we think is fair.

Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
You say they could have been avoided but as the consumer should we really have to be on the look out for scams? the rules for this seem to be a little bit of coverage but not fully when it could just be full coverage or none at all. being halfway is a bit misleading.

In a perfect world everyone would just use safetrade, protected paypal and stay away from things like loans, item duels and other payment methods. It would certainly make our jobs a lot easier. Sadly this isn't a perfect world and people will do what they want to do. It's not our job to go an babyproof the whole market - as consumers you are expected to possess and use some basic common sense. Common sense, for example, would tell you that buying steam cards from a very new accounts in exchange for a lot of items and tc is probably a bad idea. For further info on the subject of user risk see this thread here which relates to loans but is nevertheless relevant here I think.

As for our levels of coverage, mentioned that in reply to one of your points above. I'll reiterate though: we're only supporting scams in cases where it is fair and reasonable to do so. Full coverage has a lot of issues and no coverage is only a step below what we offer in 99% of cases at the moment (refunding from what items and tc are easily available).

Originally Posted by jack9918 View Post
My question: As pimp and i've just said, there are many ways of these trades going wrong. And i predict that there will be plenty of scams and a lot of unhappy people. So will this trade ever be banned? As in, would it be banned for the market thread, and the staff will not take any responsibility for any scams that happen. So it wouldn't be illegal, just that it would be "do at your own risk" sort of a thing (more of a "the staff will turn their backs on this thing)?
Because this seems like a waste of the staff's time, due to most of it being impossible to [solve]

Good question, I sort of touched on this above where I mentioned how we considered banning this stuff outright. In the end it just comes down to providing what simple support we can.

Originally Posted by Pimp View Post
Also new question if you get scammed and the tc wasn't recovered this gives you the right to scam the person that scammed you correct as long as it's not over what was lost

Not sure where you got that idea from. If you scam you will be punished, simple as that.
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Old Nov 17, 2015   #9
UNCONCHUDO
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I have 1 thought Mr. Solax
could demand new requirements for external things to portage toribash
eg 1 picture of the code with the last 3 figures covered things that the steam is also authentic boy or girl as the case this would cause could reducirce scams because the photos are needed to authenticate
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Old Dec 14, 2015   #10
Pimp
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I see alot of people offering PayPal of Csgo items on toribash while I think you can charge back money from PayPal after the person sends the Csgo skins and I these cases when it happens would you guys not help at all with the situation or ban the user who scammed this person?

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