ES Recruitment Drive
Oh ok, on average men are stronger than women are on average.

Fair's fair, time to go die for your country boys!!
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Argument suggestions
You could argue that a whole range of environmental factors determined by gender can lead to suitability in certain roles, this combined with the genuine physical trends in strength and size owe themselves to the justification of such a system. I accept that conscription only being applied to one sex is unfair, but I also feel like the injustice of conscription itself can blur the actual standalone discrimination into being less just than it is in reality. It seems feasible to argue that conscription might not fit the criteria of sexism as long as the just nature of assuming men more fit for conscription can be proven.

To summarise, it does not matter how much it sucks that men have to suffer more than women in this instance if the belief that men are more suited to such a role is logical or justified.

To be honest I would struggle to pull together a convincing argument that such blatant discrimination was justifiable, but I felt like I should point out that there is such an argument to be had if you enjoy disagreeing with pig.

Perhaps we could look in more detail at the countries that still have conscription for men and compare it to the way those countries treat women. By the sound of it most of them (judging by the fact kyure said " have pretty bad wraps for both sexes (Middle East, Northern Africa and Northern Asia). However, you would have to pray that immortal pig doesn't notice that you went back on your claim that sexism against men and that against women are incomparable. I am not willing to do research for you right now but it might be worth looking into to balance this debate.

I am not offering any of my own views because when I do that they always end up being wrong. I am just trying to give either side equal firepower.
Good morning sweet princess
Even in voluntary military service, entry standards for women are lower than they are for men. They should be equal, because an ISIS militant won't hold back or go easy on you just because you're a female.

Let's not talk about ISIS and all that though, stick to feminism and whatnot.

Here's a source to back up your argument: TIME.com
~Proto
Last edited by Zelda; Feb 19, 2015 at 01:12 PM.
I haven't looked into the legitimacy of the guy's claims in the link yet so you might want to check it yourself at some point and perhaps replace it with a better source eventually.

Some of the points he rose where strong though. Recruiters should focus more on the standard of the recruits rather than just choosing people for the sake of greater diversity. This probably goes for all areas of employment (as long as the work does not involve ethnic or gender based issues where being a certain skin colour or gender could lead to distrust or disrespect).
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
You could argue that a whole range of environmental factors determined by gender can lead to suitability in certain roles, this combined with the genuine physical trends in strength and size owe themselves to the justification of such a system. I accept that conscription only being applied to one sex is unfair, but I also feel like the injustice of conscription itself can blur the actual standalone discrimination into being less just than it is in reality. It seems feasible to argue that conscription might not fit the criteria of sexism as long as the just nature of assuming men more fit for conscription can be proven.

There are frontline positions (and commando-type units) that women just aren't suitable for, period. From experience, this is what a lot of military guys tell me.

You also gotta 'historicise' conscription. Up until very recently conscription was the total norm (as was the gender role of men being the soldiers). We don't really have a civilian-based army - we have a professional army.

Originally Posted by Organs View Post
Even in voluntary military service, entry standards for women are lower than they are for men.

Can confirm this is true for the Australian Army. Lower physical testing standards for women.
Last edited by Ele; Feb 19, 2015 at 03:03 PM.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
Yes of course it is fair to exploit a strength but not a weakness.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
You could argue that a whole range of environmental factors determined by gender can lead to suitability in certain roles, this combined with the genuine physical trends in strength and size owe themselves to the justification of such a system. I accept that conscription only being applied to one sex is unfair, but I also feel like the injustice of conscription itself can blur the actual standalone discrimination into being less just than it is in reality. It seems feasible to argue that conscription might not fit the criteria of sexism as long as the just nature of assuming men more fit for conscription can be proven.

To summarise, it does not matter how much it sucks that men have to suffer more than women in this instance if the belief that men are more suited to such a role is logical or justified.

To be honest I would struggle to pull together a convincing argument that such blatant discrimination was justifiable, but I felt like I should point out that there is such an argument to be had if you enjoy disagreeing with pig.

I think you guys are both wrong, especially Redundant for his 0 effort drive-by post.

If you want the stronger force, then logically you should pick the strongest soldiers. Does this mean you should divide your populations into 2 groups, average their respective strengths, then send the group with the highest average strength off to fight/die?

No. Unless you want to argue that ALL women are inferior to ALL men, it is not logical to select only 1 gender to fight. Logically you want the strongest to fight regardless of their gender.

Gender conscription is based on gender stereotyping that it's the man's role to fight.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
Perhaps we could look in more detail at the countries that still have conscription for men and compare it to the way those countries treat women. By the sound of it most of them (judging by the fact kyure said " have pretty bad wraps for both sexes (Middle East, Northern Africa and Northern Asia). However, you would have to pray that immortal pig doesn't notice that you went back on your claim that sexism against men and that against women are incomparable. I am not willing to do research for you right now but it might be worth looking into to balance this debate.

I don't know what you plan to accomplish, all you are going to find is countries within similar geographic areas have similar laws.

The wiki article on conscription has a map (but strategically does not count selective services as conscription) and you can clearly see there's no real correlation.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Calm down bro. I am allergic to beef.
To clarify further what aspect of your argument I thought might be worth attacking for your opponents: When you ridiculed the opposing argument thus
\/
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Fair's fair, time to go die for your country boys!!

You are focussing on the injustice of conscription which is irrelevant to how sexist it is.

Now that you have gone some way towards proving a rather unforgivably sexist decision on the militaries account, my suggestion of argument has become more untenable.
Last edited by Zelda; Feb 20, 2015 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Getting back on track.
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
Your arguments seem more or less valid except for the part where you said I was wrong.

Really? I thought the point that if you want a strong army you should pick strong soldiers, not soldiers who are on average stronger than women, was a pretty good point.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
To clarify further what aspect of your argument I though might be worth attacking for you opponents, when you ridiculed the opposing argument thus
\/
You are focussing on the injustice of conscription which is irrelevant to how sexist it is.

The injustice is pretty important - we are talking about a field referred to as 'social justice' after all.

We are talking about literally sending people off to fight and die because of their sex after all. If you want an example of sexism, I can't think of any better than millions of men dying because of their sex.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Fun Fact on Racism:

Did you know that racism isn't just up front discrimination? Pretending/avoiding racism is one of the greatest forms of racism. Things like stating that racism is no longer an issue. Silly right? Wrong!!! By pretending that racism isn't a problem, you are actually preventing racism from ending because how can you fix a problem if you refuse that it exists?
...Surely you have more productive things to do then read my stupid signature...[TA]|[TF]