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Old 2 Weeks Ago Original Post  
duck
I am all clans.
 
5th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,947



Activity check and Legendary clans news
Good morning to all of you,


Today's news have been in discussion for quite a while among the clan staff team, and today they can finally be announced to the public.

What exactly is the news?

We have 2 major news points.






Thank you all for reading, if you have any questions or objections feel free to point them out in this thread, cheers.

Last edited by duck; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:06 AM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #71
Chirs
ub3r
 
Master Belt
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,970
Clan: Aeon



Originally Posted by sir View Post
TLR: Don't start kicking your members yet, re-read the OP and take note that staff aren't some bloodthirsty madmen looking to kill things.
- Activity check system can and will be tweaked until the initial check is run in September.
- Clans aren't getting killed when they fail the check, they're getting deofficialized. If you want to have your clan killed, however, you're free to request that from CS (I'm pretty sure that'd also require members' agreement though, duck will be more helpful with info on that).
- Old activity check system sucked, was tedious to execute and it's not going back.

I'm sorry but with all due respect to duck, maybe if you didn't want to come over as bloodthirsty clan killers, having him change his forum set before he posted the rework might have been... smarter.

That aside, you cannot deny that this system favors clans that remove all inactive members immediatly, even if that was never your intention. Aeon removed ten members not because we thought it was our only chance to pass, but because it was our best chance to pass again in the future.

In my opinion, no clan should have to make that decision, but I guess that is where we disagree.
Chirs: If he insults me I can just claim misogyny.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #72
$Thrandir
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9th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,158
Clan: re



Originally Posted by sir View Post
You can request clan deletion any time. Keep in mind that when clan gets deleted, all its members are also kicked. Only legendary clans get the privilege of keeping members (and in-game tags) after dying. There's a reason CS have decided to give clans a two-month preparation period so you could decide whether you want to boost your activity, ignore the changes and hope for the best or decide to ask for removal.

[...]

Well, that's your choice. But that'd also mean your clan will have its official status removed once you completely fail the check or after three warnings. That, of course, if your clan isn't made legendary.

We're well aware. Still better than becoming unofficial clan after ~10 years, three names as official clan, merging with other clan and so on, at least for me. If [re] dies then well, it'll just mean the last reason to enter this place and check it will be gone. Discord killed toribash IRC anyway so we might as well move on other IRC server, no point in checking forums from time to time or playing if [re] is gone.


Originally Posted by sir View Post
I considered adding an inactive rank that would be ignored during checks but decided not to do it for several reasons:
- It would have still had a member limitation
- Users with clan management perms may forget to add users to inactive rank and then start requesting their clans to be re-checked which slows down the check process

First point is the main reason why the idea of inactive ranks was scrapped in favor of giving max points for activity when a clan has at least half of its members active - that's essentially exact same thing. There's also a minor possibility of users who you think are inactive may play for a few days once a month but not tell anyone - in the case of inactive rank being a thing those games would be ignored but now they're not.

For me that's still better than nothing. I don't expect 1handclap to log in since his last log in was in 2012, but totally won't kick him. However, this kind of scenarios probably isn't common for all clans, so the actual system for inactivity tier should be robust enough to be useful for all clans AND hard to exploit. Which totally is possible to do, but it needs effort & devs time.

There are many ways to approach it - to have a tier which automatically removes player from it if he plays more than 10 games in a month for example. Or if he makes more than 10 posts. Or some kind of combined metric. Sky is the limit, it certainly is possible to tweak idea of "inactivity tier" so that it actually works and is not too annoying.

If you wanted you could even add special modifiers which leaders could apply to the ranks: like the "warrior" modifier which grants 1.5x amount of points from fights from people from this rank. And "community guy" modifier which you could grant to the rank where members who are marketeers or SP players are, it'd grant 1,5x points from forum activity. And "inactive" modifier which you could add to the rank where inactive people are kept, which would result in each of them counting as only like 0.5 of a player for calculations. This way it wouldn't be so strict but allow many of us to solve our issues and be also pretty fun for clan members in general (especially from new clans).

Originally Posted by sir View Post
I may slightly out-of-touch when it comes to clans, but I don't remember any single clan that got official while having a non-existent in-game presence. The fact that old activity checks were so bad that a clan could pass it by accidentally making a few posts a week prior to a check, have no users playing in game - and only get warned for that doesn't mean that we shouldn't ever start checking activity the proper way. Keeping the official status has to be equally hard to receiving it. It's a pity that some old clans are going to get deofficialized as a result, but it also means that their members also don't care enough. I mean, there's only a few clans that aren't passing the check now but have max points for forum activity. CS aren't particularly opposed to slightly raising the amount of points given for clan activity to make it equal to required ingame activity and we'll probably end up doing exactly that before running the initial check in September (you know, duck is checking clans' progress almost daily to see the trends) - but currently it wouldn't save anyone. Out of clans that'd fail the check if it was ran today there's one clan that'd get max points for forum activity - but they also have absolute lack of in-game activity. And I'm sorry, but Toribash is a game, not a social network. If you have a clan, you're expected to play the game - at least a little. Yes it gets boring over time (just like any game would), but you can still keep talking to friends you've made in Toribash even without a clan, be it IRC, discord, any other messenger or a thread on this forum. You don't need a whole separate board to make ~50 posts per month.

I remember many staff/marketeers/replaymakers clans staying alive for years despite lack of in-game presence though. That was a standard back a few years ago. I agree all clans who were becoming official had to be active in-game, but to stay official for years - often it was enough to be active on IRC & forum.

I don't actually hate current way of splitting points as long as they do not punish clans which for whatever reasons want to keep inactive players in the clan (which, looking at this thread, is pretty common, although [re] is clearly an extreme case here). If we could clearly state that these players are inactive: we won't be getting any points if they post/play/anything, BUT they also do not count towards the games-per-member requirements, they would be fine. But this proposed system basically requires us to either kick people we don't want to kick (even though they are inactive) OR become unofficial. If that's the choice, then again - we'll rather be moved to dead clans and get our [re] butchered.

I do not see how clans having inactive members actually hurts anybody at this point. Most of these people are not going back anyway, and if they ever do - having their clan still around might be the only thing which will convince them to stay. But you can see our toriclan page - our inactive members are vast majority, but we (remaining active members who keep hanging on IRC and actually are even willing to play if that's enough to keep the clan official - with current system punishing for inactive members it's not) want to keep them just for the sake of history. Or go down with them if that's the only choice after all these years :)

I do not oppose the idea of forcing us to play - I oppose the idea of having to get rid of inactive members to stay alive. If we could have "inactivity" rank to keep our long-gone clanmates which we still cherish as they are part of our history- that is fine, rest of us who still are around will have to work harder to stay alive. And it's perfectly understendable.

Last edited by Thrandir; 5 Days Ago at 10:52 PM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #73
Zwar
Member
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 108
Clan: Evolution



What are the criteria for a clan to be Legendary ? you only said there was legendary clan but you didn't gave information about how to be.
EVOLUTION
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Old 5 Days Ago   #74
duck
I am all clans.
 
5th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,947



Legendary clans are chosen by clan staff
We chose clans by how influential they were, if they were an icon in the community, if they have achieved something great, etc. Generally, exactly what a legend means in real life too.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #75
+Tripstone
Ask largeKilla.
 
God Belt
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,245
Clan: Evolution



I feel as if I need to put my 2 cents in on this so here you go.

In the 10+ years of leading a clan and playing this game....
This is quite possible the dumbest thing that has ever happened to clans and one of the worst for the game. You are basically blackmailing and forcing the whole clan community to play the game, I view it as disrespectful and a slap in the face to every clan and there members.
Realize some of us aren't little kids who can play whenever they want.. we have jobs and a life outside of Toribash.

Forcing forum activity? That's a joke.
A lot of us use Discord for those reasons.
Forcing in-game activity?
Though I do slightly agree it is somewhat important.. but, it also forces older clans to remove the members who have been loyal and a valued part of the clan and I completely disagree forcing clans to do that to there friends just to comply with having 50% of the roster active, being forum active, war active, or any of them really. Some players don't do any of that because they don't enjoy it.
They still hang around with the clan in places such as Discord, Skype, or any other various ways but forcing players to do something is just wrong.

If this whole deal is just a part of purging all the clans because as I think we can all agree there are FAR to many clans as it is and it has completely gotten rediculous. A better more strict system for both creating a clan and becoming official should be brought back and should have been a long time ago.
When clans who have been around for a while such as mine and others who have been here for a long time they did it the hard way, not some (pay this and have an unofficial clan anytime you want). Most of those clans have became official and has both cramped up the clan community and made it more toxic, it use to mean something to be in a clan but nowadays it has become a joke.

I HIGHLY recommend and hope you all re think these rediculous terms you put in front of us and do something better or look for people who know the clan system and community to help with better future ideas that would benefit clans, not hurt them.

Cheers o7
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Last edited by Tripstone; 5 Days Ago at 11:25 AM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #76
duck
I am all clans.
 
5th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,947



If you both don't use the forums and don't play the game, and only hang around on discord and IRC, as opposed to the other clans that do indeed use both, why would it bother you didn't have a board and didn't have square tags but round tags?

EDIT: For reference, eVo doesn't have to do anything else than what it's already doing, since it's green right now.

Last edited by Icky; 2 Days Ago at 04:02 PM.. Reason: fixed your horrible typo how dare you duck
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Old 5 Days Ago   #77
+Tripstone
Ask largeKilla.
 
God Belt
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,245
Clan: Evolution



I am not speaking on behalf of all clans and members but there are clans that have members who decide not to play but socialize with there clan mates and maybe pop on once in a blue moon. I am fairly active myself in game but I choose not to play, I tend to lurk in spec a lot and conversate with friends and clan mates of mine. Like I stated before a lot of those members that clans would like to keep were a loyal, valued part of the clan who helped build them. Removing players such as those is a terrible thing to try and force on older clans.
Though I will say this about that whole situation, I mention older clans because most of the clans made 7 or 8+ years ago have a great bond with those members who have stood with them for so long, Newer clans I don't see having a bond like that quite yet. There are some players who are just forum active and there are those who are just in-game active, or do art, or videos, or replays as you stated before hand in the posts. There should be some defined line to be more fair with those types of members.


Originally Posted by duck View Post
EDIT: For reference, Evo doesn't have to do anything else than what it's already doing, since it's green right now.

I am not here because of us, I am just here to speak on behalf of all clans to try and make a better, more enjoyable situation for both parties.
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Last edited by Tripstone; 5 Days Ago at 11:43 AM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #78
:Fire
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Master Belt
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,146
Clan: Alpha



Originally Posted by duck View Post
if they have achieved something great


Last edited by Fire; 5 Days Ago at 12:00 PM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #79
nikosefs
ub3r
 
Drunken Master Belt
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,927



some questions:

since its going to be an automated system and you guys have all the data
you need,is it not simple to just add a command in your code to check
that data? i mean you don't even have to add active and inactive categories,
just have the automated system to check last game played,number of games played,last login?

question 2:

lets say we have 50 members,25 of them should play 5 games a month
to count full points,meaning 125 games.

Now if from the 50 members you have 10 active,can those 10
play the games required for full points?

edit:
question 3

how is kicking inactive members going to help in any way,how will this help
to increase in-game or forum activity?

edit2:

something like this should work:

total number of clan members divided by 2 (for the 50% of clan)
you multiply that number by 5 (for the number of games that should be played)
and finally you divide that number by the active members of each clan,
witch can be seen by the data the program will have
and not by some active/inactive category made by the users.

Last edited by nikosefs; 4 Days Ago at 09:22 PM..
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Old 4 Days Ago   #80
Butler
Go sit        on a cactus
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,855
Clan: Parrot



I can't seem to understand why older clans/forum-based clans are being punished. Surely we could at least choose whether our clan is mainly forum active/in-game active and get more points for our clan type where it matters. (Clan Type = Forum then 45 max points for forum activity and same with in-game active clans)
Basically forcing forum-active users to play a game even if they find it boring.
Maybe instead of adding all these clan updates, you should focus on improving the game and making it a lot more fun to play to bring players back.

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<Reta> can I fire him yet ?
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