Most of this stuff is purely hypothetical, and I assume that all "imaginary" players I use are around are about as good (when compared to each other) and are at the highest possible "level" in their respective mods.


Adding dojo makes wushu bit "better" (as in more competitive) if we look this at purely theoretical level.
Limited space == less room to maneuvere/run == easier to catch an escape opponent. Right?

But in game it's not that simple. To quote killer3366: "So you added dojo? I can still run.".
It's always easier to move to any other direction than one, than it is to move to that one direction.
That's just how things work, right?
Even if you add dojo, at best you only remove two or three directions "runner" can move towards.
What "runner" has left is still more than what "chaser" has. (..And in most cases you can just gamble it by jumping OUT of the ring.)

Basically Wushu's problem is the ease of "stalling" the game and winning by basically not doing anything.
If you have lead it's more beneficial to avoid doing anything/avoid "gameplay" than to actually do something.

Yes, we could "ban" running/escaping/avoiding contact, but where do you draw the line? What's "dodging" and what's "avoiding contact"?
And if we do ban "running", shouldn't we also ban "shovels", "snapkicks", "rush openers", "lifts", etc etc etc?




Pardon me ABD players & duelers, most of my knowledge is a bit old here so do correct me if I'm wrong.

As fun it is to bash ABD for sake of being "hipster" or whatever, I do agree that it does what it tries to do.
It's relatively simple to pick up, has it's own metagame and "nuances"going and at the moment it is probably the second most played mod. (Most played being aikido, because it's defaul mod..)


Anyhow, in my opinion ABD's problem (from competitive point of view, as usual) is actually exactly the same as with wushu.
After you gain that advantage it's too easy to keep it by doing "nothing".
This usually happens as early as around 4th or 5th turn.
If you by that point have 10-15k (pulling these figures out of my ass, sorry. :<) lead you have basically won the game.
(This might be old info, I'm not really that familiar with current ABD dueling metagame/shenaningans atm).
At that point you usually have both hands grabbed, in "best" case scenario whoever has the lead controls both of the grabs too.
He has 15k lead and will win the game in "few" turns. If both player are top notch and TRULY playing to win, you can't really do anything past that point
(except if the opponent makes a huge mistake..), because both players know how to avoid getting lifted/doing anything stupid and the guy with point lead has huge advantage due to controlling grabs (and having that lead).

Yes, you could argue that whoever got the lead is better player and that keeping the lead requires more skill, but..

tl;dr: Both wushu and ABD are problematic due to how easy it is to win by getting early lead and then just avoiding to do "anything that endangers the lead". Which more or less turns the game into opener based a rock-scissors-paper game.

Pardon all typos & other grammatical fuck ups. Tired. All-nigher. No coffee.

Considering this, would it be more competitive or less to just to disable all frame limits? I mean the point of ABD is to make it so that you are encouraged to pin people inside/outside the dojo, and high damage openers are usually deciding factors in long matches, where time runs out. Although slightly winning by points is one of the more appealing/exciting aspects of the game, it would remove annoying tactics such as runs and high damage openers. Everything would rely on the ability to guard yourself from being dismembered and guard yourself from being DQ'd. Most fighting games have a time limit, but most fighting games don't have almost infinite planes to move across. The only way to fix these mods appear to be either take away time limit or set restrictions to what you're able to do.

NOTE: This is in regards to actual esport competition. No, I do not think it is a good idea to remove time limits in recreational, public and private servers.

After playing ninjutsu for a few more days, I've realized that I was far from correct about my previous assumption, I still love the mod, but it can have openers just as cheap as mushu ones. I think runkido is pretty fair, but for competitive I'd have to go with a good game of aikido.

Created another topic for discussion about overhauling/etc crrent system.

Let's keep this on topic about what is the most competitive mod in the current mod pool.

To Muur:

To some extend yes. I was actually expecting that someone would bring up sparring as the most competitive mod.

Anyhow, adding ~3000 frames (I think that's the hard limit for frames in multiplayer?) to most mods would pretty much remove one winning condition, and render all all point based mods and tactics useless.

I have no problem with current(?) point focused metagame in ABD. If your strategy is to gain point superiority and keep it untill game ends, fine. It's as valid strategy as any other. The problem at the moment is that at the moment said strategy is too "strong", doesn't have any kind of counter play to it and basically wins the game without you "doing anything"..

Also, e-sports usually aim to be "spectator sports" too, and watching 3000 frame match tends to be tad boring (yes, I am looking at you sparring!).

I'd have to say spirt wrestling because in some instances of the mod you can only hurt and dm yourself so your fighting your opponent and fight to keep yourself from well... Hurting yourself and that is something not a lot of players think about in mods like aikido and judo

Arglax Moderated Message:

Put more effort in your posts, this isn't OT.

As far as i'm aware the Spirit Wrestling mod isn't exactly what it was for the league. One of the setting was messed up or something, someone told me about it a long time ago. The idea of the Mod when Suo and I created it was to pin your opponent or throw them out of the ring. When you are playing for prizes and stuff its hard to cheap out on. It was certainly competetive when we did the league with it on.