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Old Sep 17, 2015   #21
Zelda
 
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While admittedly she should have stepped down from her position immediately, I don't really blame her for not doing that since it was her job. I probably wouldn't quit my job just because I was bad at it and I don't blame her for her belief either. Admittedly she was wrong to be surprised at losing such a job, but I don't like punishing people for lack of foresight.
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Last edited by Zelda; Sep 18, 2015 at 01:52 PM..
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Old Sep 17, 2015   #22
Kyure
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Originally Posted by Zelda View Post
She while admittedly she should have stepped down from her position immediately, I don't really blame her for not doing that since it was her job. I probably wouldn't quit my job just because I was bad at it and I don't blame her for her belief either, people can be Christian all they want, as long as we make sure they don't disrupt the order of things then they are fine, and she has lost her job already (I think) so no big deal.

And she disrupted the order of things. Therefor she was in the wrong.

Again, what is there to discuss?
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Old Sep 17, 2015   #23
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Yeah, sorry, changed my post before I could see you had responded.
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #24
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Marriage shouldn't be a right, it sounds more like a privilege.

Also fools that want to get married, thinking the world is going to change with your prenups and documented love, hahaha.

If you aren't religious I seriously think you shouldn't even be thinking of getting married.

Can someone explain why Marriage is THE thing, that HAS to happen?
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #25
Kyure
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Originally Posted by T0ribush View Post
Marriage shouldn't be a right, it sounds more like a privilege.

Also fools that want to get married, thinking the world is going to change with your prenups and documented love, hahaha.

If you aren't religious I seriously think you shouldn't even be thinking of getting married.

Can someone explain why Marriage is THE thing, that HAS to happen?

What a stupid thing to say. It's a tradition, that many people hold as it is shows that you have a bond. Also, it is indeed a right, as it makes you eligible for many things that you would otherwise not be eligible for.
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #26
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Originally Posted by Kyure View Post
What a stupid thing to say. It's a tradition, that many people hold as it is shows that you have a bond. Also, it is indeed a right, as it makes you eligible for many things that you would otherwise not be eligible for.

The argument that marriage is a basic human right because it's a tradition is INCOMPATIBLE with the argument that gay marriage should be allowed at all.

How can you simultaneously shit on and uphold a tradition? You can't, that's a contradiction.

Originally Posted by Gunkman04 View Post
I think you don't really understand what it means to be discriminated against. I live in South Africa, so I should know best of all, You con't seem to comprehend how degenerative and sad it is when you are denied a simply because of the color of your skin.

No, I don't think you really understand what it means to be discriminated against. I don't live in South Africa, so I should know best of all, You con't seem to comprehend how degenerative and sad it is when you are denied a simply because of your religion/gender/socioeconomic status/etc.

Originally Posted by Kyure View Post
And she disrupted the order of things. Therefor she was in the wrong.

Again, what is there to discuss?

Lol should have just thrown all the blacks into jail in the mid 50s, since they were disrupting the order of things XD Great argument.

Originally Posted by meow View Post
She broke a law, how is she not in the wrong?

lol not at that time, but the law is not the same as morals.
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Last edited by ImmortalPig; Sep 18, 2015 at 04:31 AM..
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #27
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I really don't know if Pig believes the crap he's spouting or just playing devils advocate here.

Kim Davis got jailed for disobeying a court order. None of this has anything to do with her religious beliefs. As a government employee in the US, your first amendment rights are limited while working. If you feel like you cannot do your job because it disagrees with your beliefs, then you must step down from your position.

There really is nothing to discuss, she broke the law, she was jailed, idiots flocked to her because they are idiots and bigots. The end.
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #28
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When I said this might not be much discussion material, I had forgotten that Pig exists. So let's get crackin'.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
We are literally talking about removing one person's rights for someone else's benefit, how can you even say that?

The wording is a bit ambiguous, but based on your later posts, I assume you mean restricting someone's first amendment rights to deny marriage licenses to same-sex couples. This is addressed in the edited portion of my first post.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
In a world where white people are assaulted or killed for stepping foot in the ghetto, you have to go with "imagine being a black person going into a store and being told you have to leave!"?

Let's really think out that scenario: a racist person has a shop and won't let in fags and niggers. What's the worse that happens? Well they get told to leave. This is the dystopic nightmare future that awaits people having the right to deny access to their property.

Is this really something that I should care about? Do you prefer the reality where people are sued out of everything they own for refusing to make a cake that supports something against their belief? Is that really the preferable future?

Not exactly sure why you even said this. Cowmeat says that he suppports the theory of the idea of refusing service for any reason, but because there are prejudiced people, this wouldn't be best for society. All you really did with the above quote is provide an example of what Cowmeat was saying, but then for some reason treated him like he was wrong about something.


Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
People are not machines, they have the right to deny service at their discretion

Not exactly true. You can't deny someone service for walking into the store with their left foot first, but you can deny someone service if they are disruptive and potentially causing the business to lose customers. There are laws that provide general rules about this, and some businesses refine the exact terms of denial of service even further.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
you are literally saying that X group of people should have the right to overrule the rights of Y group of people. Take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the victims of these situations.

Edit of first post.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Originally Posted by cowmeat
Discriminating others is not a right........

But forcing someone out of their job is?

That's some very creative morality you have there.

In the particular case of Kim Davis, there was a law. She did not follow the law. She got arrested for breaking the law. Her termination of employment was considered. This is literally a non-issue. You're following the same type of logic that those "free inhabitant" fuckwits are throwing around. If you don't know what the free inhabitant movement thing is, go look it up. It's a hoot. Also, edit of my first post.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
lol if you really thought that then you wouldn't have had to make the ad absurdium argument that "Im not protecting/selling meds to that nigger, let him get killed."

It's not an absurd argument at all. It's the same situation, with different sets of people. County clerk offices are required to distribute marriage licenses. Hospitals are required to treat patients (once a physician-patient relationship exists [hospital cannot admit a patient and then refuse to treat once the doctor finds out the patient is gay]).

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Exactly how is "not getting married" more suffering than "loosing your job/business"? In what world is that correct? Exactly why is discriminating based on religion ok, but based on sexuality not ok?

This is not discrimination against religion. Edited portion of my first post.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Exactly why should someone be forced to do something they believe to be morally wrong when not doing so would cause absolutely no harm?

Then that person can either:
A) Find another job
B) Find a workaround so that marriage licenses do not need their approval
C) Move to a different department of the county clerk office

When laws change, processes for businesses and government offices need to change as well. If that stands in the way of someone's morals, it is their duty to make sure that they can do their job without getting offended.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
This concept can be extrapolated to any given set of beliefs. You cannot force a person to accommodate gays/transgenders/furries/bronies/dragonkin/whatever if they object to it. If you as a state attack them, the only thing you're doing is sowing the seeds of hatred.

As I beat the dead horse with Pig, I'll give it one more whack for you. Edited portion of my first post.

Originally Posted by T0ribush
Marriage shouldn't be a right, it sounds more like a privilege.

Also fools that want to get married, thinking the world is going to change with your prenups and documented love, hahaha.

If you aren't religious I seriously think you shouldn't even be thinking of getting married.

Can someone explain why Marriage is THE thing, that HAS to happen?

Please, actually contribute to the discussion. This was not a contribution. But I'll answer it anyways because why not.

1) Marriage is a privilege. There is a lot of paperwork and approval that needs to happen in order for people to get married. This is usually why people set marriage dates farther into the future, to make sure they've got everything done before the "big day."
2) Marriage isn't for everyone. Seems like it's not something you'd like either right now. You might change your mind when you get older.
3) Marriage isn't necessarily a religious thing anymore, while its origins were in religion. Married couples do get some tax breaks in the US, which makes it more than just a state of mind.
4) This has kind of been answered in bits and pieces through my other three responses. Like I said, not everyone wants to get married, but for those that do, it's a way to tell your spouse that you really do love them, especially since getting a divorce is more paperwork and more difficult than just a breakup.

As for Pig's most recent post that I'm too lazy to break up into quotes, he's mostly kinda right on most everything. Except the second bit. That's obviously a troll. And the third one is dismissive. And the first half of the last sentence is wrong if he's referring to the meow saying it was against the law. I greatly anticipate your response to all of this, Pig.
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #29
ImmortalPig
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Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
EDIT: Some more information on the first amendment and how Davis and her supporters don't have a leg to stand on when they use it as an argument. While the first amendment does grant religious freedom to citizens, it also prohibits the government from creating or enforcing any law that favors one religion over another. As she is a government employee, her actions while on the job embody the government. When she refuses to issue a marriage license to same-sex couples, she is (as the government) putting her own religious beliefs ahead of everyone else's, which is a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause of the first amendment.

This is a perversion of the truth, the 14th amendment requires due process, the 1st protects religious practice. While it was decided IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE that the state should processes gay marriage licenses, but it was also decided that Davis was protected by the 1st amendment. To reiterate, what she did was not illegal, people spreading that misconception (to put it mildly) are pushing some agenda.

Government employees are not the government, this was not part of any discourse I've read. The government as an entitiy cannot deny gay marriage, but employees individually can on religious grounds and are protected under the first amendment. Check out Hobby Lobby v. Kathleen Sebelius, another case dealing with the other side of the coin.

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
Not exactly sure why you even said this. Cowmeat says that he suppports the theory of the idea of refusing service for any reason, but because there are prejudiced people, this wouldn't be best for society. All you really did with the above quote is provide an example of what Cowmeat was saying, but then for some reason treated him like he was wrong about something.

lol pretty sure he was being highly sarcastic, but ok let's roll with that...

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
Not exactly true. You can't deny someone service for walking into the store with their left foot first, but you can deny someone service if they are disruptive and potentially causing the business to lose customers. There are laws that provide general rules about this, and some businesses refine the exact terms of denial of service even further.

If businesses are allowed to refine their terms, then wouldn't they be allowed to deny service to left-foot-firsters?

Under federal law there's the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Americans with Disabilities Act, and *some* states may add gays to the list of protected people, but I've literally NEVER heard of any act that disallows refusing to serve left-foot-firsters.

From a federal perspective, so long as you aren't discriminating based on gender, race, color, religion, national origin or disability. Sexuality is covered under the 14th amendment after due process, thus on a case-by-case basis.

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
In the particular case of Kim Davis, there was a law. She did not follow the law. She got arrested for breaking the law. Her termination of employment was considered. This is literally a non-issue. You're following the same type of logic that those "free inhabitant" fuckwits are throwing around. If you don't know what the free inhabitant movement thing is, go look it up. It's a hoot. Also, edit of my first post.

There was no such law (and if there was then it would have had to have been screened as per Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993), it was a long process, this was a landmark case, it was not cut and dry at all.

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
It's not an absurd argument at all. It's the same situation, with different sets of people. County clerk offices are required to distribute marriage licenses. Hospitals are required to treat patients (once a physician-patient relationship exists [hospital cannot admit a patient and then refuse to treat once the doctor finds out the patient is gay]).

No, people dying is not the same as people not being married. Sorry but I'm not ever going to concede that one lol.

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
This is not discrimination against religion. Edited portion of my first post.

It is though, a job that someone previously was doing is no longer performable due to a federal ruling. According to the previously mentioned RFRA the gov't cannot enforce burden on religious practice (which this undoubtedly is) without the law serving a compelling interest and using the least restrictive method for implementation (which clearly would be not forcing people to do it).

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
Then that person can either:
A) Find another job
B) Find a workaround so that marriage licenses do not need their approval
C) Move to a different department of the county clerk office

When laws change, processes for businesses and government offices need to change as well. If that stands in the way of someone's morals, it is their duty to make sure that they can do their job without getting offended.

That's like saying "breaking someone's arm causes no harm because they can either: go to a hospital, find a work around such as using their other arm, maybe just become a riverdancer instead". Harm is harm, and being forced out of your job is definitely harm.

Whether or not there are actions that can be taken does not diminish the amount of harm.

Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare View Post
And the first half of the last sentence is wrong if he's referring to the meow saying it was against the law.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt and allowed a legal ruling to be called a "law". But just to be clear, it absolutely was not and is not against the law.

Go ahead and try and point me to which law. The 14th amendment? The constitution is a framework in the first place...
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Old Sep 18, 2015   #30
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she got arrested because she broke the law. im not fully sure on american law however i know recently america finally got marriage equality, if you dont agree with this then its fine but whats not fine is denying a 'government' service that is open to everyone because you have the 'power' to do so.
she wasnt arrested for being christian, she was arrested for using Christianity as an excuse to deny service to someone and generally be a tosser.

to say shes a strict christian shes had about 3 husbands which im not really caught up on this but im guessing this is also frowned upon
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