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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #1
Wounder
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Rule's need a change.
Recently Diamond, who recently became a legend, and is one of the best influences of recent Toribash history, was banned for selling TC.

This is Diamonds appeal to said ban:

Diamond's Appeal



I believe the rule is totally unfair, and totally IN favor of the scammers, while giving everyone else in the community a headache. Just recently Ceytune/Senu/Tyka has gone around and scammed 3 people in USD duels, and he's free as a bird.

Here is diamond's stance on the Senu situation and USD duels in general.

Diamond vs Senu



And here is Krong's response to Diamond's appeal

Krong Response




Diamond response to Krong


In my opinion I feel these rules not only destroy people's motivation to play, but also hurt the active player base which should be protected, while also protecting scammers, it truly makes no sense. Note:

someone named 'Asni' has gone around on discord impersonating users like me, diamond, and others, and has scammed upwards of 200$ USD AFTER this whole TC selling reform was implemented without even having an account to ban, so how useful is it really?

What are your opinions on the situation? Do you think the rules on TC selling, and USD dueling need a reform, or should they be enforced just as they are now, and how would this carry onto TB Next without killing it?

Last edited by Wounder; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:29 AM..
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #2
pouffy
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I will delete any posts that only/primarily discuss whether diamond should or shouldn't be banned, and may infract repeat offenders.

Please stick to discusing the rules themselves.


Also note that this thread may not receive an official staff response and isn't in the appropriate board for suggested changes.


Last edited by pouffy; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:26 AM..
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #3
ЊKris
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Screenshots of conversation between Diamond and Pouffy



This conversation adds some context to what is happening and provides some of Diamond's points and some of Pouffy's pounts, which I believe is a wonderful example of

Overmoderation.

.. which is definitely killing this community. The issue at hand is that Diamond, one of the most impactful, influential players in this tight knit community, sold TC in the wrong order; he sent the TC, recieved the USD, then went to document it on the forums, when you're supposed to document first, then transfer TC/USD.

He was banned for a calendar month. He was warned previously to follow the correct order. I and many others feel this is unjustified, but I'd like to dive into

What is so wrong about it.

One of many things wrong with this situation is that it shows the community that no matter your influence or stance in the community, even it be one of the highest achievable titles (Legend), you can still be kicked out for something as simple as forgetting to make a forum post. He had every intention of making the forum post as well, he just didn't do it in the order the administration wanted, which is ridiculous. This is definitely a very raw, unfiltered form of micro-administration on a comparibly micro-community. We have, on a good day, around one hundred concurrent players. Do we really need to be banning the most influential people for something as minor as this?

Regardless of anything, the ban is unjust, the administration are simply too prideful to admit a mistake, which happens. Hopefully some higher ups will catch wind of this and potentially argue against it, but I don't see that happening either. He didn't threaten anyone, didn't harm anyone, nor did he do anything destructive in any way.

He simply forgot to make a forum post before a transaction, marking a Toribash player titled "Legend" banned for a calendar month.

Laughable.

Edit: It has also come to my attention that Diamond didn't even forget about the post, they just hadn't reopened his TC selling thread in time. Even worse.

Last edited by Kris; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:06 AM..
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #4
Fire
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This is just dumb and stupid.

Last day lisa wanted to buy tc from me, and she directly sent me the money (viewing the fact that she trusts me), and told me on discord. However i left her waiting for like 30 mins or more, waiting for market squads to accept my thread that i requested, 1 day ago (No one of reimu and athin even asnwered me when i messaged them, despite of them being online), until lisa talked to krong to allow my thread so she could post and so i couldd send the money.


We should not deal with all of this just to be able to sell some tc. The least you could do is keeping track of transactions WHILE HAVING OUR THREAD PERMANENTLY OPENED.


And if you think you catched these players, I am telling you there are many of them. Way to many


Just unban them already and dont make this worse than it actually is.

Last edited by Fire; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:44 AM..
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #5
Shmevin
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1. A verified seller is someone who has demonstrated a certain level of trustworthiness and honesty. Whether or not the TC is sold on the board or in-game, it is clean and not obtained illegally. TC that is acquired through scamming or rule breaking would undoubtedly be found or reported before the audit during the thread approval process. Additionally, the fact that Diamond showed intention to document the sale in his soon-to-be approved thread is proof that there were no bad intentions.

2. Sellers attempting to post a thread and are awaiting approval are at the mercy of staff and their schedules. I've had threads take up to 48 hours to be approved, without any sort of justification or reasoning for the delay. This impedes business and hurts both buyers and sellers, especially if either of them are in a hurry to make a deal.

3. Trade has always been a common practice in-game, and the sale of TC is no exception. Servers where the transfer of TC takes place, such as bet servers and duel servers, are a perfect place to advertise or seek out sellers. I'm willing to bet that whatever instances of sales occurring outside of the designated board that were caught by staff don't even scratch the surface. I'd even go as far as saying that players who are not verified are more likely to get away with these transgressions, as they are not actively monitored by staff like verified sellers are.

What is the purpose of prohibiting players from selling TC in-game? Who are you trying to protect? What sort of order are you trying to maintain? What illicit activity are you trying to prevent? I hope that someone involved in the enacting of this rule would shed some light on the matter, it would greatly benefit this discussion.

If staff believes that verified sellers are the only ones that should be allowed to sell TC, and if they would like documentation of all the sales that take place, so be it. However, I urge staff to please reconsider prohibiting the sale of TC in-game.

Also, I sold Xanax 800,000 TC. He approached me to purchase TC, and I obliged. You might as well ban me too.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #6
Chirs

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Originally Posted by Kris View Post
One of many things wrong with this situation is that it shows the community that no matter your influence or stance in the community, even it be one of the highest achievable titles (Legend), you can still be kicked out for something as simple as forgetting to make a forum post.

And thats definitely a good thing. No community member of any status or fame should be exempt from any rule and should be held to the same standards as the average memeber.

Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Do we really need to be banning the most influential people for something as minor as this?

I'm not commenting on if a ban is the right punishment or what the right punishment would be, but I am going to say that I very much agree that Diamond, or anyone for that matter, deserved to be punished for breaking a rule. Just like everyone else. Piss name or not.

Originally Posted by Fire View Post
We should not deal with all of this just to be able to sell some tc. The least you could do is keeping track of transactions WHILE HAVING OUR THREAD PERMANENTLY OPENED.

It's unfortunate that there seems to be such a delay with the reopening of these threads, but I am inclined to believe Krong that it's alot more effort than simply clicking "open thread". You have to keep in mind that we are talking about real money, and stealing/scamming people for real money is a real crime in the real world. Toribash and by extension nabi is probably legally protected in this to some degree, but that doesn't mean that moderation shouldn't ensure to be the utmost strict when it comes to real money transactions.

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
1. A verified seller is someone who has demonstrated a certain level of trustworthiness and honesty. Whether or not the TC is sold on the board or in-game, it is clean and not obtained illegally.

And that is exactly why such a trusted seller should be aware of the proper proceedings and patient enough to follow them, or else expect to be punished. Regardless of if waiting for a thread to be opened is bad for business, I think having to wait beats being scammed every day of the week.


Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
2. Sellers attempting to post a thread and are awaiting approval are at the mercy of staff and their schedules. I've had threads take up to 48 hours to be approved, without any sort of justification or reasoning for the delay.

I agree that there could have been better feedback from the staff side as to why reopening these threads takes a while, and also why they are closed in the first place (Diamond himself not even being aware of the auto-close after 5 days is a clear example).

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
3. Trade has always been a common practice in-game, and the sale of TC is no exception. Servers where the transfer of TC takes place, such as bet servers and duel servers, are a perfect place to advertise or seek out sellers. I'm willing to bet that whatever instances of sales occurring outside of the designated board that were caught by staff don't even scratch the surface. I'd even go as far as saying that players who are not verified are more likely to get away with these transgressions, as they are not actively monitored by staff like verified sellers are.

Has it ever occured to you that being able to sell Toricredits and being afforded even some form of moderation-protection at all is a priviledge in itself? Toribash and by extension nabi is under no obligation to allow real money transactions in the first place, and the immense risk for scamming they involve. This is why USD duels are not supported, as they are near impossible to track perfectly without accessing serverside chat logs (Which I don't even know if they exist).

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
What is the purpose of prohibiting players from selling TC in-game?

Preventing people being scammed for real money.

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
Who are you trying to protect? What sort of order are you trying to maintain?

Gullible users and by extension also themselves. You may be on top of your game and can spot a scam, but what's to say I can?

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
What illicit activity are you trying to prevent? I hope that someone involved in the enacting of this rule would shed some light on the matter, it would greatly benefit this discussion.

Scamming, more precisely scam for real money, which is a crime in most countries, if not all.

Originally Posted by Shmevin View Post
Also, I sold Xanax 800,000 TC. He approached me to purchase TC, and I obliged. You might as well ban me too.

Well props to you for being honest.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #7
Wounder
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Originally Posted by Chirs View Post
And thats definitely a good thing. No community member of any status or fame should be exempt from any rule and should be held to the same standards as the average memeber.



I'm not commenting on if a ban is the right punishment or what the right punishment would be, but I am going to say that I very much agree that Diamond, or anyone for that matter, deserved to be punished for breaking a rule. Just like everyone else. Piss name or not.



It's unfortunate that there seems to be such a delay with the reopening of these threads, but I am inclined to believe Krong that it's alot more effort than simply clicking "open thread". You have to keep in mind that we are talking about real money, and stealing/scamming people for real money is a real crime in the real world. Toribash and by extension nabi is probably legally protected in this to some degree, but that doesn't mean that moderation shouldn't ensure to be the utmost strict when it comes to real money transactions.



And that is exactly why such a trusted seller should be aware of the proper proceedings and patient enough to follow them, or else expect to be punished. Regardless of if waiting for a thread to be opened is bad for business, I think having to wait beats being scammed every day of the week.




I agree that there could have been better feedback from the staff side as to why reopening these threads takes a while, and also why they are closed in the first place (Diamond himself not even being aware of the auto-close after 5 days is a clear example).



Has it ever occured to you that being able to sell Toricredits and being afforded even some form of moderation-protection at all is a priviledge in itself? Toribash and by extension nabi is under no obligation to allow real money transactions in the first place, and the immense risk for scamming they involve. This is why USD duels are not supported, as they are near impossible to track perfectly without accessing serverside chat logs (Which I don't even know if they exist).



Preventing people being scammed for real money.



Gullible users and by extension also themselves. You may be on top of your game and can spot a scam, but what's to say I can?



Scamming, more precisely scam for real money, which is a crime in most countries, if not all.



Well props to you for being honest.

The title itself even reads 'the rules need a change'
You're just telling people what they did wrong, but ignored the actual argument that the rules aren't working as intended and hurting the community rather than healing it. I'm very curious to see your opinion on the situaiton, seeing as you don't even play the game so none of this affects you in the slightest. It seems you don't fully comprehend the situation nor care.

Also icky while you're at it might as well extend Xanax's ban for 2 counts of buying TC off the market, even though he's one of the few people still playing this game, and even fewer willing to spend real money on it.

Last edited by Wounder; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:20 AM..
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #8
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Originally Posted by Wounder View Post
Also icky while you're at it might as well extend Xanax's ban for 2 counts of buying TC off the market, even though he's one of the few people still playing this game, and even fewer willing to spend real money on it.

I don't decide how the MS do things, i only place what they specifically tell me to do if they're unable to attend to it immediately, if they want to change anything about the bans and need my help, they'll say so. I don't do anything market related of my own volition.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #9
Chirs

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Originally Posted by Wounder View Post
The title itself even reads 'the rules need a change'
You're just telling people what they did wrong, but ignored the actual argument that the rules aren't working as intended and hurting the community rather than healing it.

Except that I was. I explained that the rules are about preventing scamming. Something thats very commendable, and in my opinion worth being enforced.

Originally Posted by Wounder View Post
I'm very curious to see your opinion on the situaiton, seeing as you don't even play the game so none of this affects you in the slightest. It seems you don't fully comprehend the situation nor care.

Okay, rude. First off, I do play this game, and I do care. I also fail to understand what my activity has to do with how much my opinion on this matter is worth, since you posted it on the forums for everyone to see I assumed even someone who doesn't spend his time dueling for real money can respond. Excuse my arrogance in assuming so.

To answer your question: My opinion on the rule(as I've stated in my previous post) is that I think it's completely justified to

a) Completely disallow the sale of TC for real money ingame, as I feel it is not secure enough and making it secure enough would eat up to much moderating resources.

b) Punish people for not following these rules, regardless of their standing in the community. What that punishment should be like, as I've said in my previous post, I don't think I'm qualified to discuss.

The fact that having to document your sales before you do them gets your knickers in a twist so bad shows that it's you who fails to understand the actual logic behind these rules. You fail to see them as anything else but an attempt by staff to flex their muscles and impede in your "business".

If there is anything else you'd like to know please feel free to ask me, although I would very much approve if you'd kept the entitled remarks about me not being affected to yourself.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #10
Wounder
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Originally Posted by Chirs View Post
Except that I was. I explained that the rules are about preventing scamming. Something thats very commendable, and in my opinion worth being enforced.

Except it hasn't done a whole lot in preventing scamming, and in fact the dueling rules actually help scammers.
People are now abusing the verified TC sellers function by impersonating them on discord and scamming the USD without even needing a toribash account, so there's no way to punish them.

Originally Posted by Chirs View Post
Okay, rude. First off, I do play this game.

No you don't
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