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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
Natejas

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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,529



So I don't really care to read these other walls of text so I may accidentally recite previously stated things. In my personal opinion, the rule is and always has been a useless, inconvenience from the start, and I'd like to add that this situation was probably predicted in one of the original backlash posts from when this rule was first put in place. Don't get me wrong though, scam preventative rules should definitely be put in place, and on paper, this seemed like a good route but I need all of staff to be very honest when they say this rule is flawless. Between the constant closing of threads to the time it takes to then reopen the thread, there are flaws all along the way.

Starting with inconvenience, it's useless time consumption for both sellers and staff despite it being a responsibility. For players it's; create a thread, wait for approval, have it closed, repeat. While in text this doesn't seem too unreasonable, much like the rule itself, but in reality, the first two steps could take a full 24 hours or more and I know this from experience and it's extremely upsetting when you try to abide by the rules and your wallet has to be affected by it especially with someone such as Diamond who can do 16mil+ in sales a month. For the buyer they may need the TC ASAP, bidding in an auction, outbidding on an item, or just personal leisure and that's also very annoying. I've sold TC and tried to get the thread approved as soon as possible by contacting staff directly through Discord and have received responses with evidence of annoyance which leads me to believe it's an annoying inconvenience for MS as well. If I really wanted to nit-pick I'm sure I could come up with a few more ways this is just inconvenient but I believe this has done justice.

Next, is it really preventing scams? Before this, if a player scammed another player, said scammed player would make a report and the scammer would then be banned. New rule in place, what's different? If someone really intends to scam another player they've already accepted they will face repercussions and will follow through with it. With the rule in place are people just going to stop scamming? No. A scammer will scam while completely aware they will be banned, so now that we have a rule that overcomplicates the fact they will face repercussions literally nothing will change.

So now we have a rule that has done nothing other than getting trustworthy, community-driven, Toribash icons banned for simply not wanting to deal with an unnecessary inconvenience. They applied to become verified sellers. They sold tc. Nobody was scammed. What's the big deal then? Lack of documentation of the transaction? If a player wishes to purchase TC through means outside the TC selling board they should be more than aware they will need to present proof if scammed, this is just common sense. Take a screenshot of the conversation and that's that. Yes, I know this rule was set in place as a way to prevent scams but all it has done was create more steps and obstacles instead of just simply screenshotting a conversation.

A fix I believe would to just simply have a verified sellers list, if an unverified player sells or attempts to sell TC then they will be banned. Simple as that, where the transaction takes place should make no difference especially considering the potential loopholes. "Oh, this guy randomly transferred 1,000,000TC to someone else let's ban him for selling TC." guy post in ban appeals "Oh it was a loan/duel I lost.", now what? The only proof of a sale visible to staff is the transaction history of a player, if noticed and called out for it there are so many easily accepted responses it's just redundant. It was a good idea but when a member of the community such as Diamond gets banned you really need to stop and quit being so stuck to your guns and think about what's really wrong and listen to the community.
-----
Okay, so I was bothered enough to read previous walls of text and my goodness as an ex-shitty staff member myself, I'm impressed. Creati0n, Krong, and Pouffy I wholeheartedly want you to take a moment to reread your responses, especially Pouffy. I know none of you intend to come off as an elitist dickhead but from what I've read that appears to be what you've done. With that being said the forum is for the game. It doesn't matter that the majority of you don't play the game, the forum exists for the game so that argument was just retarded for a lack of better words. The convenience of selling TC in-game does get taken into account, it's what the TC is fucking for, you get TC for items for the god damn game. The fact we are trying so desperately to be overly forum based is so stupid, fuck it lets just get rid of the dead game and let's just be a forum, like what the actual fuck. So now that we've realized that all of this is literally revolving around the game let's stop and think about the rules and responses for a moment. "It doesn't matter that selling in-game was more convenient" No it really really does, the fact that actual players of the game have to feel like lesser beings is actually insane, your status and position only exist because of the game, the TC itself is meant for the game, so this whole little "fuck the game itself" mentality we seem to be endorsing really needs to get reworked. For those of us who spend more time in-game than on the forums, this really does matter and we shouldn't be inconvenienced because we still actually play the game.

Now onto just poor moderation. The smartass, low-level responses really need to get the fuck on somewhere. You wonder why the games dead? This along with the previously mentioned push for centering everything around the forum. Now I've gotten the chance to know you all fairly well and I know the three of you do have a drive to better the community and game itself, it's why you are where you are but I believe you displayed that extremely poorly here. Annoying or not, Diamonds status or not, a player should not be belittled for pointing out flaws in rules/staff. Repeating yourself instead of attempting to understand a situation more is not a valid response. You owe it to the community to ensure the best for them, creating a rule and not allowing any criticism nor debate for repercussions is not justified. It's just lazy to be like this as well and with the current state of Toribash I truly doubt you guys are just all far too busy to show empathy to situations and actually try to resolve disputes in a respectable manner. As someone who truly wants to see Toribash bounce back, especially as we head into Toribash Next, this behavior should not be acceptable, when happens when TBN is homescreens Steam and an influx of new members join with complaints? Do we try to listen to said members or greet them with a "find someone else to bitch too"? I hope to see responses to both my post and I'll try to keep up with this thread from here on.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Last edited by Natejas; 1 Week Ago at 05:24 AM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
Hug
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,901



From what I can see the main accusation here is that staff members doing their job slow when somebody needs them but selectively they are quite nimble in different situations and so it leads accidents like that.

First of all what I wanted to say is that if nothings has changed since I was involved in all that Toribash staff thing almost all staff members are working on voluntary basis so I guess blaming them for not being a Gucci Call Centre is useless.

Judging by the protocol Diamond was banned because he was in hurry and sold toricredits before he went trought the official procedure. If you put your hand into the jaws of a dog you should be aware of being bitten. If you want something to change in that system you should make it before you are breaking it.

However, there is one such important thing as a common sence and people undeservedly forget about it. If you see a guy who's selling his toricredits like at least one time in two week without any violations probably he won't scam anyone and banning him won't prevent scams one iota. And yes you should be aware of current situations with toribash. It's slowly dying and banning the most active players I BET won't help to change the situation.

Take that verification system from online e-money wallets where you need to verificate your person just once, so they don't need to be confirmed everytime they want to make a deal. Let theim keep their threads opened and you'll change that situation.

And I am totally agree with Natejas about "the fact that actual players of the game have to feel like lesser beings is actually insane, your status and position only exist because of the game". That is the thing I see through the whole time I am here. Don't forget, guys, when you put that barrier between you and other players you make things getting worse. What is good about games is that everyone here can be equal. No matter how old you are, no matter how much money you have. You know, the best examples are Tim and Erth. One was egocentric hateful snob and the other is openminded altruist - who's making things better? When you are on a first-name basis with other players it's easier to understand them and exaplain them whatever you want to.

However staff members SHOULD BE MOTIVATED to work better, they CAN'T BE FORCED.

Last edited by Hug; 1 Week Ago at 11:27 AM..
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Old 1 Week Ago   #23
dnomaiD
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Posts: 7



In response to people saying that I should've protested the rule before breaking it and that I got warned before:

I got warned for selling tc completely outside of the forum, and I did protest these rules. Screenshots of Krong warning me:

1


2


3



In the warning Krong said that I shouldn't sell tc w/o posting on forum. So, despite disagreeing with it, I started selling tc and posting about it on forum(evidence for which is me trying to create the thread, because of which Krong started checking my transfer history at all).
But it never even occured to me that for some reason it is soooo important for Krong and other staff that I do these actions in a distinct order. Why would anybody pick on such an insignificant thing?
-----
A common argument is that these rules decrease the amount of scams that happen.

I highly doubt that anyone can measure the actual amount of scams. Staff can only see how many scams are reported. And if that number is decreasing, then the two most likely reasons would be decreasing population of the game(which overmoderation and overloading tb with stupid rules, I believe, only escalates) and the fact that people just won't report getting scammed now, because they know that they'll get punished for dealing outside of the forum too.

I have probably sold the largest amount of tc ever. And I can tell you, that vast majority of my clients have no clue about your rules and the fact that there is some Toricredits Board, where you're supposed to make deals. They just whisper me in TB or message me in Discord. And I have to tell them that there's a thread that they have to post in and then we can make a deal blah blah blah... So, what it means is vast majority of buyers are not protected at all by your rules. If they stumble upon a scammer, instead of me or another honest TC seller, they'll just get scammed.

Verified TC sellers wouldn't scam in the first place, because they're verified, so there really is no point in prohibiting verified sellers to sell outside of the forum. Scammers scam irregardless of whether there are verified sellers or not, irregardless of any rules at all, because they're scammers.
-----
Besides players that are unaware, there are players that just don't want to deal with your clumsy system where you have to deal on forum. Usually it's people who need tc ASAP, to bet or to buy something. And there's more of them than you think. They will get scammed too. And your system may even contribute to it, because, with you enforcing these useless rules, mostly scammers will be the ones who can offer a quick deal. Because verified sellers, being afraid of a ban(which you so eagerly hand out), would often have to make those people wait until staff open their thread or just require them to get on forum and make posts.

And after such people get scammed, they, of course, won't report. And that's how you get the impression that scams are decreasing.
-----
The idea of having verified sellers may not be a bad one, even though it barely helps anybody, it just makes staff able to dismiss a bunch of cases where the seller wasn't verified. But it has turned into banning honest sellers for selling tc just before posting about it, which is insane. It went seriously wrong somewhere.

Current system only creates complications for verified sellers, while maybe even benefitting scammers for two reasons now: first is the one I stated above, because scammers now are the ones who are the most likely to provide a deal in game or in Discord or a quick deal that many people need. The second one is that it gets verified sellers banned, decreasing the number of honest sellers, thus increasing the probability of unknowing players running into scammers in their search to buy tc.
-----
Some highlights of our discussion in discord:

Spoiler alert!


The ''you broke the rules'' mantra that they'll keep repeating as their only argument, dismissing everything else, every our argument, and even the fact that nobody denies that I did break this one petty useless rule.

you broke the rules


you BROKE the RULES


I was getting the impression that Icky(MIKE) holds a grudge against me, even though I don't know him at all, or is he like that with everybody? See more below.

hm


breaking the rule is breaking the rule


Icky proclaims me and Shmevin untrustworthy!

mhm


Implies that I'm dishonest?

hmm


very appropriate sarcasm by a staff member!


Making a strawman and fighting against it, ignoring my points.

my only point...


thanks for the input, MIKE!


what did we break again?


MIKE thinks I need babysitting

very funny


not sure if this was supposed to be a joke, I didn't get it

huh?


what? come again?


-.-


trying to correct sir for 100th time...

my point


Yes, just ignore it and say something sarcastic!

all rules


You did everything bad... ACCORDING TO THE RULE! -.-

rule


apparently, I'm not a trusted TC seller because I broke an idiotic rule. Disregard that I've sold the largest amount of tc ever and never scammed anyone! Also staff control.

NO TRUST


man got a red name and looks down on everybody else

down


some more sarcasm


no patience


me getting angry and some comedy by staff!

what a joke...


some more


Toribash aint losing anything, you'll come back after the ban.

oh yeah?


back at it with their beloved rules!

the rules say


imagine being a staff member that acts like this

imagine all the...


figures


Yeah, we're just mad we got banned. Also Shmevin saying obvious truth

mad


Staff don't need you if you disagree!

don't need you


sir joking about parents... also RULE

very funny!


what a comedian!


What else can I say?

132


some mind reading in the end, I'm only protesting because I got banned! Even though screenshots of my conversation with Krong above prove it wrong.

pfft


Last edited by dnomaiD; 1 Week Ago at 05:44 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
Hug
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,901



I don't understand all that thing. There are rules that are written, I understand your position about them but you were banned for violation of procedure. I mean first you need to create a thread and then after you getting an agreement you can sell your toricredits, right? I believe that people can discuss rules and all but violating them despite you consider them stupid or not and then argue with staff for being banned is not an option. Krong did warn you in a polite way and you clearly told him that you actually violated the rules.
I am pretty sure if you'd tell your story in a polite way you would not be treatened like that. You made your bed and now you got to lie in it. You could simply admit that you've made a mistake and let staff members understand you instead of forcing them to change rules because they seem useless to you. You could also make a thread about those rules after you get your account back to live and trust me it could have more weight. Even now you are making neat allegations and wondering why do they treat you like that after all. Don't know what do you expect, that's not how diplomacy works.
I am not defending staff, they have their own problems but in this case you are wrong, IMHO.
P.S
Selling tcs doesn't help toribash economy because you do not return money back to toribash, that's obvious. If you don't believe me look what happened to a toricredit rate nowadays. I am not saying that selling toricredits is bad but appealing to this like it's keeping tb economy alive is funny.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #25
Creati0n
 
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,566



gonna c/p a few snippets of conversation I had with diamond here:
Code:
[1:06 PM] william: I understand the concerns you all have the verification system, and it’s something that can be looked into through meaningful discussion. I’ve looked through the whole discussion thread, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen a single alternative provided to me. [1:06 PM] diamond?: but long story short: this system doesn't work, it only complicates life for verified sellers [1:06 PM] diamond?: for the full long story I'd suggest reading the thread in discussion [1:06 PM] william: I’ve only seen people complaining and asking for the system to be abolished, which just isn’t going to happen I’m afraid. [1:07 PM] william: read what I’ve said above: I’ve read the thread and understand the concerns you all have. [1:07 PM] william: and I happen to agree to a certain extent – the system is in no way flawless, and doesn’t act as a safeguard for all circumstances. [1:08 PM] william: that being said, I would appreciate it if you all would work on providing alternative systems, guidelines and regulations rather than only ask for the system to be abolished.
I'd like to also go ahead and remind everyone the primary reason behind why this system is in place:
Originally Posted by Remain vigilant when buying TC from other users.
.
NOTICE:

Good afternoon everyone,

Due to a recent exploit, multiple accounts have recently been compromised. Most are going to try to sell you items or TC, and the recent trend is that they've all previously been inactive accounts.

Before purchasing any items or TC for USD from someone, consider whether or not they are a regularly active user or someone you normally see around the market. If you have absolutely any suspicions about any account please contact a Super Moderator or Administrator to verify whether or not the account is legitimate and not compromised.

We appreciate your cooperation and vigilance. Thanks.

This is an announcement I made on February 18th, 2018. About $500 worth of items and TC were stolen from previously inactive accounts and sold on the market to our users. I created the Toricredits board on February 22nd (the same year) to ensure that buyers aren't purchasing hijacked TC, and verified sellers don't get their TC stolen from them.

Obviously the board has evolved into a bit more than just being a simple safeguard for account hijackings, but the core premise behind this system has remained the same throughout every policy change: to ensure that our users are reasonably protected when purchasing and selling TC on our platform.

THIS SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO BE REMOVED UNLESS ANOTHER ONE IS GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED TO TAKE ITS PLACE. A POLICY WILL NOT BE REMOVED WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE, AND IN THE EVENT OF ITS REMOVAL, WILL REQUIRE A POLICY OF EQUAL PROTECTION TAKE ITS PLACE.

If you want this thread to be used as a vessel for policy change, that's fine — I and the rest of the Market Squad are open to policy being changed for the benefit of the community. If you have a specific policy suggestion that you would like to be considered for implementation and would like to receive community and staff feedback, it's in your best interest to create a separate thread in our Suggestions & Ideas forum and leave a link to the specific post in this thread for other people to reference to while discussing in this one. I'm more likely to respond to policy suggestions made in its own personal bubble of a thread rather than individually leave comments on them in this long discussion thread.

If you'd like to contest a current policy for removal, please follow the same steps I mentioned above. I'm more likely to leave valuable discussion material in multiple threads regarding different rule changes than I am to reply to them all in this thread.

I'd like to go ahead and mention that I'm on vacation, but I will be following this topic closely in my off-time to ensure that I understand what the community wants and values when considering my responses to potential policy changes. If anyone has any questions or concerns for me specifically, please feel free to contact me via PM or on Discord. I'll make sure to get back to you as soon as possible given the current circumstances.

Thanks for reading. Hopefully all of us, the community and staff, can find an equal compromise on the state of the Toricredits board in the near future.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #26
Natejas

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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,529



They literally just keep saying you broke a rule you got banned without discussing any good this rule brings. That's the fucking question if they only good it brings is "people can impersonate you" then that's not enough lol. Mocking Diamond for selling TC calling him dishonest despite the fact the transaction went without any scam is retarded, like how dense do you have to be to mock an honest person before being honest? All in all the game's gone downhill, all that will happen here is more long term Toribash players will stop playing, game will become even more dead and this elitist mindset of "we made a rule and there's no way WE could make a bad rule so rule breakers get banned and that's the only answer we need" will continue until the game finally dies sometime soon. It's sad but we have a bunch of people who have been in their positions for too long to realize any wrong they may do and because of that it leads to poor moderation and will another reason players don't stay, at least we'll have a forum lol. They all refuse to give an opinion on the rule itself and only state the obvious and it's sad, really sad to see Icky act like this as well but all of this has been said for years and that's why we've seen such a decrease in players, is what it is. "what good have you done, get legend?" Lmao, I remember when I suggested culapou should've been legend for his contributions and they said no, legend is for ideal players who have done good for the community so for Diamond to get this implies just that, but instead we which hunt those who sell TC and act like idiots when called on it. It's honestly sad. rip.
-----
Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
gonna c/p a few snippets of conversation I had with diamond here:
Code:
[1:06 PM] william: I understand the concerns you all have the verification system, and it’s something that can be looked into through meaningful discussion. I’ve looked through the whole discussion thread, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen a single alternative provided to me. [1:06 PM] diamond?: but long story short: this system doesn't work, it only complicates life for verified sellers [1:06 PM] diamond?: for the full long story I'd suggest reading the thread in discussion [1:06 PM] william: I’ve only seen people complaining and asking for the system to be abolished, which just isn’t going to happen I’m afraid. [1:07 PM] william: read what I’ve said above: I’ve read the thread and understand the concerns you all have. [1:07 PM] william: and I happen to agree to a certain extent – the system is in no way flawless, and doesn’t act as a safeguard for all circumstances. [1:08 PM] william: that being said, I would appreciate it if you all would work on providing alternative systems, guidelines and regulations rather than only ask for the system to be abolished.
I'd like to also go ahead and remind everyone the primary reason behind why this system is in place:


This is an announcement I made on February 18th, 2018. About $500 worth of items and TC were stolen from previously inactive accounts and sold on the market to our users. I created the Toricredits board on February 22nd (the same year) to ensure that buyers aren't purchasing hijacked TC, and verified sellers don't get their TC stolen from them.

Obviously the board has evolved into a bit more than just being a simple safeguard for account hijackings, but the core premise behind this system has remained the same throughout every policy change: to ensure that our users are reasonably protected when purchasing and selling TC on our platform.

THIS SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO BE REMOVED UNLESS ANOTHER ONE IS GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED TO TAKE ITS PLACE. A POLICY WILL NOT BE REMOVED WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE, AND IN THE EVENT OF ITS REMOVAL, WILL REQUIRE A POLICY OF EQUAL PROTECTION TAKE ITS PLACE.

If you want this thread to be used as a vessel for policy change, that's fine — I and the rest of the Market Squad are open to policy being changed for the benefit of the community. If you have a specific policy suggestion that you would like to be considered for implementation and would like to receive community and staff feedback, it's in your best interest to create a separate thread in our Suggestions & Ideas forum and leave a link to the specific post in this thread for other people to reference to while discussing in this one. I'm more likely to respond to policy suggestions made in its own personal bubble of a thread rather than individually leave comments on them in this long discussion thread.

If you'd like to contest a current policy for removal, please follow the same steps I mentioned above. I'm more likely to leave valuable discussion material in multiple threads regarding different rule changes than I am to reply to them all in this thread.

I'd like to go ahead and mention that I'm on vacation, but I will be following this topic closely in my off-time to ensure that I understand what the community wants and values when considering my responses to potential policy changes. If anyone has any questions or concerns for me specifically, please feel free to contact me via PM or on Discord. I'll make sure to get back to you as soon as possible given the current circumstances.

Thanks for reading. Hopefully all of us, the community and staff, can find an equal compromise on the state of the Toricredits board in the near future.

I have an alternative on the Suggestions board but like much else that takes place there, no feedback, no criticism from higher-ups, and all involved staff just keep saying there have been no alternatives mention despite the post I made both here and in Suggestions regarding a change.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
~ raku ~ Team Girl Scouts ~ Clan League 2013 Champion ~ Duelist ~
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Last edited by Natejas; 1 Week Ago at 07:36 PM.. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
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Old 1 Week Ago   #27
Creati0n
 
7th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,566



Originally Posted by Natejas
I have an alternative on the Suggestions board but like much else that takes place there, no feedback, no criticism from higher-ups, and all involved staff just keep saying there have been no alternatives mention despite the post I made both here and in Suggestions regarding a change.

Feel free to bump the suggestion or send me a PM; I'll make sure to get to it over the next couple of days if it has anything to do with my line of work.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #28
Rutten
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 424



If it's agreed that the system isn't great and requires changing, why are Shmevin and Diamond still banned?

They broke a rule? We all just finished establishing that the rule requires changing, who cares that they broke this nothing rule (and no harm was caused)?

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Old 1 Week Ago   #29
Hug
 
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,901



Originally Posted by Rutten View Post
If it's agreed that the system isn't great and requires changing, why are Shmevin and Diamond still banned?

They broke a rule? We all just finished establishing that the rule requires changing, who cares that they broke this nothing rule (and no harm was caused)?

Well first of all both of them are unbanned.
Secondly, Nabi gave us place to trade and they have the right to set rules that they think can help prevent scam situation. The only thing I see people complaining about that rule is that they don't want to wait till they'll be verified.
This procedure seems pretty simple and legit to me. You are getting verified by staff members, you make a thread and so customer can safely buy toricredits without thoughts that he can got scammed. That situation with some guy Asni was caused by ignoring rules. The only problem I see about it is the fact that sometime it takes too long for staff to respond and Sir said he gon change it. So what's the matter? It doesn't matter if the rule seems stupid to you, it exists and you shouldn't brake it. And please, when you say "we all" it doesn't mean that "we" stands for the whole community.
You are blaming staff for doing their job.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #30
Rutten
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They're unbanned and the slowness of reopening TC threads is going to be addressed? Good. As a related aside, I was editing my post to include this little spiel about Diamond's treatment in discord, so I'll include it here.
----------
Hey everyone, look at how the staff interact with people who get on their bad side. Look at how much honesty and care they're capable injecting into their corrospondence.

As pointed out in those screenshots just posted, why would anyone ever want a 'dishonest' rulebreaker like Diamond representing the community?

Imagine calling Diamond (recently made legend btw - meaning before this he was considered OK) a dishonest person because he broke a silly rule and is arguing for a rule change. Dishonest. For that.

It's always been this way, you stand against the staff on any issue, they will entrench themselves and do all manner of things not to engage with you/the actual issue. Complain too long and heck, they'll even remove your ability to make your case against staff in the Help section. Staff consists of a handful of arrogant early 20s (who really dont give a shit about you) in higher positions who lead around a bunch of younger staffers that now believe that this sort of behavior is acceptable

Toribash staff has and always will be completely fucked, community management-wise. You'd have to cut of the toxic head off first for anything meaningful to happen, but as it turns out that toxic head is directly employed by Hampus.


Last edited by Rutten; 1 Week Ago at 12:02 AM..
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