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Old May 7, 2015 Original Post  
cowmeat
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[War] Current ranking system.
Hello.

I've been extremely "motivated" to play the game these past few months just because of the war system. I love competitive gaming and enjoy Toribash so combining those in a clanwar is so much fun for me. But I just heard from GM's (Moop, Smallbowl) that the ranking system is completely uncompetitive. For example the ranked #1 clan [Wapow] in the last 50 games have lost 24, which is almost half (26 wins 24 losses). On the other hand # 41 [Parrot]s full record is 25 wins 4 losses. [Wapow]'s full record is too long to document so I only took the last 50 games seen, so the data isnt fully accurate but still very clear. There should be no reason [Parrot] is ranked #41.

What is the point of a ranking system, if it does not encourage winning? How can you rank clans if the point system is unable to record even remotely accurately the best clan (which Im not saying we are)? Getting only points for winning in a ladder where you can war as much as you like is indeed a bit pointless.

In order for Toribash to generate even the slightest hint of esport viability (which would be awesome) fixing the ranking system should be high priority. At its current state it does not encourage winning other than "for honour", and it definitely does not give any gratification from being a high ranked clan. The knowledge that it doesnt really matter if you win or lose does really lower my motivation for warring.

I really hope to hear about the problems that my proposal might pose and would be more than happy to help the mod team in this problem to create a better ranking system and a better competitive enviorment for us all.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQUATION FOR RANKINGS (important shit)

here



-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will address the problems and solutions in PS.

1. How?

There are plenty of algorythms and scripts of ladder/ranking systems online, and If that is hard to implement, even a simple 1 point per lose 1 point per win would be better than the current system.

2. Would It cause clans to only play games that are certain wins?

If the point system rewards winning higher ranked team then definitely not. It would actually benefit the lower ranked teams to challenge higher ranked ones. Thus creating a richer and more diverse ladder.

3. Clans would only pick their own mods then?

My proposal is that in "ladder matches" if agreement on the mod cannot be found its half and half mods, each clan chooses an official mod and its split. If both are fine with lets say ABD, no problem.

4. It would deter casual players from warring?

Possibly, but then again the games casual nature is the largest part of the experience already. Dedicating a small part of TB to competition would be fine in my opinion

5. What about the current ladder?

That is up to the devs, I personally would be fine with a reset or implementation into the current standings.

Pros:

-Easy to reward active clans and players with prizes for winning.
- Brings "professionalism" to warring.
-Competition is fun and so is winning, it is very satisfying to climb the ladder and achieve a higher rank when you really deserve it!

Cons:

-Implementation could require some work/programming which I dont understand so I cannot comment on it.

Last edited by cowmeat; Oct 23, 2015 at 11:49 AM..
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Old May 8, 2015   #21
Ele
 
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Originally Posted by DrHax View Post
If what you're trying to measure is a clan's absolute strength, activity really can't play a huge part in the scoring system. You have copious clans (more than 80%) of the top 15 in the official ranks who wouldn't on their best day win a war against the most talented clans in Toribash. In a system that cares about actual strength, you wouldn't have Team Girl Scouts in 120, RelaxAll in 145, Alpha in 152, and NO in 300. Nor would you have other clans, who I won't name out of respect for their hardwork and activity anywhere near the top 10.

Maybe you feel differently, maybe you think the point of the clan ranking system is to encourage constant warring and activity is super duper important. That makes sense too. I'm telling you what I'd enjoy in a system.

I wouldn't say activity shouldn't play a big role, but you're right, it shouldn't be the main determining factor. A win-ratio modifier (based on clan war wins) should play a role, which Cowmeat has included into his algorithim.
(as an aside, total points gained and win ratio should be a visible statistic on the clan rankings/toriclan pages)

The clans you listed haven't put any effort into wars however, and at the end of the day, the rankings are based on war results (which requires wars to be played). From unranked to 32nd, TLDR's only had to do ~35 wars. I wouldn't support a change to the system that gives clan completing <15 wars a high rank.


We can have all the great ideas to change things, but if the implementation sides of things (Fish) doesn't have the will to do it, then that's a major, determining problem that needs to be fixed. Get new devs in.

Last edited by Ele; May 8, 2015 at 02:44 AM..
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Old May 8, 2015   #22
Bodhisattva
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Let me retract my point and agree instead with FistOfLife.

I was wrong. We can save trying to come up with an intelligent way to gauge skill in a solo ELO thing for a different discussion (one we've held a hundred times because Fist and I, along with many others, can't stand the ranking system).

If the goal of Clan Rankings, is to create clan war activity, it's doing a great job. They just need a harsher penalty for losing, so a tighter algorithm basically.
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Old May 8, 2015   #23
cowmeat
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Originally Posted by DrHax View Post
If the goal of Clan Rankings, is to create clan war activity, it's doing a great job. They just need a harsher penalty for losing, so a tighter algorithm basically.


Then dont call them rankings, call them maybe "activity points". What I'm going for here isn't some daycare style participation medal way of approach. I want for the best players/Clans to have the highest ranks. Activity plays a little role to me. If some clan has better players than others I frankly don't care about their activity. So I made an algorithm that calculates the best clans.

What I'm getting at here is that rewarding activity should be a sepparate goal
And leave the rankings to reflect the actually best clans/players

Ps. It's easy to blame fish and devs, but in the end of the day people just throw ideas at walls and don't do anything concrete with them, leaving the devs to actually figure everything out. If you really want to make this new system in to a thing. Check my formula and give suggestions on improving it or give something concrete.

Last edited by cowmeat; May 8, 2015 at 07:00 AM..
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Old May 8, 2015   #24
Krulls
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Honestly cowmeat,

If you are interested in such algorithms, I would advise you to apply them making real money in real life, I do.

But if you want an active community of gamers, it will have to relate to activity.
If Toribash Ranks or Clan Ranks reflected the best players and didn't include teamwork and activity levels, you might as well have about 10 members who fight it out to see who is is #1 and who is #10.
Game Over!

BTW, I would quickly move on to something else.
I can win Portal single player and Mirror's Edge and I can play Minecraft or Terraria or Mass Effect or whatever and win all day everyday.

This is a team effort and in that case, activity rules.

That's just my opinion.
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Old May 8, 2015   #25
cowmeat
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Originally Posted by Krulls View Post
But if you want an active community of gamers, it will have to relate to activity.
If Toribash Ranks or Clan Ranks reflected the best players and didn't include teamwork and activity levels, you might as well have about 10 members who fight it out to see who is is #1 and who is #10.
Game Over!


This is a team effort and in that case, activity rules.

First of all I do not care for maths or algorithms, I actually hate anything to do with math. But since nobody is gonna make the ladder for me I have to do it myself.

I heavily doubt that activity levels would drop and even if they did, you think bad players should be rewarded "ranks" because they play alot? Thats just stupid in my opinnion. As said, call them "activity points" or something else.

Also what do you mean by "this is a team effort"?

Im not sure you understand what competitive means

Last edited by cowmeat; May 8, 2015 at 07:37 AM..
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Old May 8, 2015   #26
Merc
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If it was based on Ratio rather than Wins then it'd be hard to rankup, Not supported.
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Old May 8, 2015   #27
cowmeat
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Well what I'm aiming at here, is that the system should be so, that the rank #1 clan would be the best. At the moment only thing actually ranking the clans is a tournament once a year (Clan league). To me that is just stupid and should/could be fixed.


Removed the quote. ~Cheshyre

Last edited by Cheshyre; May 8, 2015 at 08:00 AM..
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Old May 8, 2015   #28
Krulls
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Might want to fix Boxing and Football and Soccer and Basketball and Competitive Knitting and Quilt Making as well IDK.

Good Luck!
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Old May 8, 2015   #29
cowmeat
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Originally Posted by ZENBOY123 View Post
If it was based on Ratio rather than Wins then it'd be hard to rankup, Not supported.

Read the algorithm before commenting on what its based on.

Win ration 70% would give 20% increase to the score gained.

And the score gained is calculated with the difference in score between the two teams.
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Old May 8, 2015   #30
cowmeat
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl View Post
The fact is, with any system you can dream up the order will never be right. Some clans like NO just want ti war.

So?
Does that mean we should improve it?

This is the pointless attitude that doesnt create any progress
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