Original Post
Multiclans
Originally Posted by Rai
Now that the initial heat has died down from this situation, there has been some posts with good points brought up and I am keen to see the direction that the discussion takes. What I'd recommend is that you start a thread in the Suggestions and Ideas board and direct people from the Off-Topic thread there where we can try to build something better.
The purpose of this thread is develop a solution to this recent mess regarding Parakeet. Use this thread to suggest alternative solutions to the problems perceived by clan staff.
The problems as clan staff see it:
Our rational is as so:
Parent-child, sibling, feeder or any type of multi-clans like this circumvent many intentional limitations placed on toriclans:
- member limits
- easy war farming
- easy achievement farming
- easy xp farming in general
- much larger (unfairly so) catchment for new recruits
- two recruitment threads, one usually in a space reserved exclusively for unofficial clans
- potential to play twice in clan events
- undefined interaction with activity checking
This Off-Topic thread, started when this new rule banning 'multi-clans' was implemented, has several suggestions for alternate solutions to clan staff's concerns, as well as arguments addressing the validity of clan staff's concerns. That thread should be considered required reading before posting here. I think Redundant's post, especially, shines a light on several good points.
----
My solutions to some the concerns raised:
Member limits - If a clan is formed for the sole purpose of de facto raising the member cap of another clan, then sure, ban that. You don't need to ban 'multi-clans' to do this, simply make a rule that says 'Abuse of the membercap system will not be tolerated'. Then, if it ever does happen that a clan is created to raise the membercap of another, you can stop them under that rule.
Easy war/xp/achievement farming - As above, make a rule that forbids abuse of the war + achievement system. Assumedly this rule would already exist. There's no need to over-bureaucratize this.
Potential to play twice in clan events - If they're two seperate clans, with two seperate memberlists, I don't see the problem. If you suspect collusion would happen, ban collusion.
Undefined interaction with activity checking - I'll define it for you. Clans are active, or they lose their board. Both clans would have to be active (if both clans were official (since unofficial clans don't get activity checked)). This is really a non-problem.
Last edited by Ele; Nov 19, 2017 at 08:43 PM.
Forumite
Originally Posted by Ele
Member limits - If a clan is formed for the sole purpose of de facto raising the member cap of another clan, then sure, ban that. You don't need to ban 'multi-clans' to do this, simply make a rule that says 'Abuse of the membercap system will not be tolerated'. Then, if it ever does happen that a clan is created to raise the membercap of another, you can stop them under that rule.
Oh so if they don't mean to abuse the membercap, and it was just a coincidence that it happened that way, then everything cool! We can trust your intentions, yeah?
lol
basic was right:
Originally Posted by basic
imagine if every official clan had a feeder clan
don't you think this community is too small for this kind of thing?
This isn't a "Slippery slope fallacy," it's absolutely true. You use that to say, "wow they're instituting a curfew at night in my city, next thing you know they'll have shitting schedules for us!" is bullshit. A -/> B. In this case, you don't have two different things going on
Allowing feeder clans absolutely means people will make feeder-clans. I mentioned this in the other thread, but the community is, at best, like 1500 members. Once one clan figures out they can supersize their membercount, others will too. Every old staff clan can make their own cute little feederclan, potentially doubling their membercount. The example I posed in the other thread, 5 or 6 clans having almost 50% of the toribash community in their ranks, is extreme, but normalizing feeder-clans will absolutely stratify the community, whether you want to accept it or not. The solution to that is limiting membercap somewhere else, whether that means having a feeder clan puts you out 30 spots in your parent clan, or vice versa. Frankly, it'd be easier to be able to have ranks in your main clan that don't show tags
As you propose it, a feederclan is especially harmful because it 1.) doesn't rely on its own reputation to get members (applications to the feederclan hinge on the reputation of it's parent, official, clan), and 2.) because the parent clan can force any old joe into it because, in your words:
Originally Posted by Ele
Parakeet would house players we wouldn't accept into Parrot. Point of Parakeet would be to build them up to that Parrot standard...
we don't want a chunk of our clan filled with people who we feel don't meet our standard.
Originally Posted by Ele
Potential to play twice in clan events - If they're two seperate clans, with two seperate memberlists, I don't see the problem. If you suspect collusion would happen, ban collusion.
Which one is it, are they two seperate clans or is one just a list of not-quite-good enoughs that the parent clan is molding into acceptable little soldiers. You can't have it both ways, my dude. The whole concept of a feeder-clan implies that the parent clan is intimately involved in the affairs of the feeder-clan by definition.
The only solution to that is making it so feeder-clans can't participate in any events at all.
-snip-
Last edited by Arctic; Nov 23, 2017 at 05:17 AM.
Reason: the mean legion
@Coca,
The thrust behind my solutions Coca, is that that by slapping on this ban on 'multiclans', all they're doing are creating an additional set of rules for things that are already covered by the rules.
You aren't allowed to farm wars for XP or achievements. If a 'multiclan' does that, close it - Same way you'd deal with a regular clan.
On membercaps, what is the point in us opening up a clan to avoid a membercap when we've recently increased our membercap? There's no point. In fact, because membercaps recently became increasable, I doubt there's any clan that would create a clan to circumvent the cap anyway. But yeah, I sort of agree with you on this one. There doesn't need to be a rule about membercaps.
On playing twice in events and collusion, assumedly it's already illegal to collude during clan events. So yes, staff have to figure out what is and isn't collusion already. This is not more work...
@Erth,
I'll reply after I've had some sleep. Good post.
@Pouffy,
Perhaps just don't post?
The thrust behind my solutions Coca, is that that by slapping on this ban on 'multiclans', all they're doing are creating an additional set of rules for things that are already covered by the rules.
You aren't allowed to farm wars for XP or achievements. If a 'multiclan' does that, close it - Same way you'd deal with a regular clan.
On membercaps, what is the point in us opening up a clan to avoid a membercap when we've recently increased our membercap? There's no point. In fact, because membercaps recently became increasable, I doubt there's any clan that would create a clan to circumvent the cap anyway. But yeah, I sort of agree with you on this one. There doesn't need to be a rule about membercaps.
On playing twice in events and collusion, assumedly it's already illegal to collude during clan events. So yes, staff have to figure out what is and isn't collusion already. This is not more work...
@Erth,
I'll reply after I've had some sleep. Good post.
@Pouffy,
Originally Posted by Icky
Note I shouldn't need to mention but I will for the sake of attempting to head it off before it starts.
Don't devolve into insults and tantrums. Keep it civil and continue to aim for a resolution that satisfies, if not pleases all parties.
Perhaps just don't post?
Last edited by Ele; Nov 19, 2017 at 10:25 PM.
Forumite
Originally Posted by Ele
@Pouffy Perhaps just don't post?
Read around it? I made tons of valid points in that post, as well as rule suggestions. Show me the lie dude and I'll delete it.
Last edited by pouffy; Nov 19, 2017 at 10:34 PM.
Reason: ayylmao
Why does it have to be another clan? If you want to make a training ground to prepare people for Parrot, can't you use other means instead of bumping small unofficial clans to the 2nd page? If Parakeet doesn't aim to be prestigious and is simply used for feeding Parrot new members, does it need the benefits that come with the clan system, like warring and ranking? And I doubt it needs its own dsc either, considering that everyone uses discord or irc for chatting. Make a pseudo dsc thread in your main clan's board if necessary.
If you want to implement an official feeder clan system, it would probably be better to make it a sub section of the main clan rather than hosting it outside and taking space in the clan board, which is one of the most active boards plus it would be bad for the smaller unofficial clans as it was already mentioned a bunch of times.
If you're so repulsed by other people that you simply don't want them near you until they're parrot approved, then I don't really know what to say and I have no input on the matter.
If you want to implement an official feeder clan system, it would probably be better to make it a sub section of the main clan rather than hosting it outside and taking space in the clan board, which is one of the most active boards plus it would be bad for the smaller unofficial clans as it was already mentioned a bunch of times.
If you're so repulsed by other people that you simply don't want them near you until they're parrot approved, then I don't really know what to say and I have no input on the matter.
oh yeah
