Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
If no one brought them up it's because no one thought they were relevant.
He obviously thought it was important to the topic or else he wouldn't have stressed your omission.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Sadly expectations placed on males prevent them from reporting domestic violence and rape. In reality both domestic violence and rape are nearly 50/50 splits in both victims and perpetrators.
Earlier this semester my tutorial class had a discussion on this issue. One of the girls said something along the lines of 80-90% of women have been sexually harassed/assaulted. Other girls also said they knew of this statistic. This is how it's been almost forever. In terms of equality, this isn't a level playing field.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Rape and domestic violence remain a place where males are powerless (look at the number of pro-female adverts or shelters), and yet somehow it is considered a 3rd wave feminism issue?
I think you need to look at it from a different perspective. 3rd wave feminists see this sort of thing as a political struggle, certainly. But beyond that, there's this widespread, overarching effort to change how people respond to female harassment and abuse. I'd call it a sort of morale effort. That's why it's such a major issue - in sexual harassment and abuse against men you don't see this urgency to change perspectives.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Cross thread quoting is against the rules of the game, but I'll play anyway -_-
What's up with that, anyway? Does any mods actually believe constraining, pedantic rules like that allow for substantive debate? They shut down discussion..
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
There's no contradiction and the arguments are cohesive so I don't feel a need to reitterate...
It's not so much a contradiction. It just seems to me like with all your knowledge of the sufferings of minority groups, I expected you to have a more informed view.
Originally Posted by Ele
He obviously thought it was important to the topic or else he wouldn't have stressed your omission.
Not important enough to talk about, but important enough to mention that no one talked about it? Ok.
Originally Posted by Ele
Earlier this semester my tutorial class had a discussion on this issue. One of the girls said something along the lines of 80-90% of women have been sexually harassed/assaulted. Other girls also said they knew of this statistic. This is how it's been almost forever. In terms of equality, this isn't a level playing field.
Ask them if they also know the '77c to the $' statistic. It's just propaganda dude, are you really using 'some girls in my class said' to overrule wiki?
Given it is a hard statistic to gather data on because domestic violence and rape against females is over-reported, and it is under-reported against males. And things like "90% of women have been sexually harassed/assaulted" is obviously grouping 'harassed' (which if you ask them is going to be things like someone asking for their number) with something much more serious and defined like assault is going to be misleading.
Women are seen as precious and complainers, whereas men are strong and resolute, so the cultural stereotypes also introduce even more bias. I'm sure you are aware that most people think domestic violence and rape against men is a joke at best, where as against women it is unacceptable.
Originally Posted by Ele
I think you need to look at it from a different perspective. 3rd wave feminists see this sort of thing as a political struggle, certainly. But beyond that, there's this widespread, overarching effort to change how people respond to female harassment and abuse. I'd call it a sort of morale effort. That's why it's such a major issue - in sexual harassment and abuse against men you don't see this urgency to change perspectives.
It's a major issue, but it's not a feminist issue, and it's not a gendered issue.
Is violence against men more acceptable than violence against women? Is rape against men more acceptable than rape against women?
This is akin to tackling 'black crime' because you feel that blacks commit more crime. Regardless as to whether it is true or not, ALL CRIME is bad, so adding racial profiling is counter-productive.
Originally Posted by Ele
What's up with that, anyway? Does any mods actually believe constraining, pedantic rules like that allow for substantive debate? They shut down discussion..
It's not a written or enforced rule, but since some people (in debate forum it used to be required more or less) will pick their position based on what is going on in the thread, it can't be expected that an argument will maintain coherency across multiple threads and topics.
Originally Posted by Ele
It's not so much a contradiction. It just seems to me like with all your knowledge of the sufferings of minority groups, I expected you to have a more informed view.
I am informed... That's quite a subtle ad hominem m8.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Not important enough to talk about, but important enough to mention that no one talked about it? Ok.
The fact that he mentioned you ignored it means that it's important to the discussion.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Ask them if they also know the '77c to the $' statistic. It's just propaganda dude, are you really using 'some girls in my class said' to overrule wiki?
It doesn't matter. My point still stands. The reality is there's an urgency for change that isn't present with mens rights.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
I'm sure you are aware that most people think domestic violence and rape against men is a joke at best, where as against women it is unacceptable.
Yes, and feminists use this as an example of a one of the cultural/moral stereotypes they're trying to break. It's not just a 3rd wave feminism thing either. 2nd wave was all about breaking stereotypes too - 'how women ought to be'.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
It's a major issue, but it's not a feminist issue, and it's not a gendered issue.
It's nothing if not a feminist issue. It's a part of the moral effort I talked about earlier that's been present in 2nd and 3rd wave feminism. Before that, in the 1880-90s, it was purely socio-political.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Is violence against men more acceptable than violence against women? Is rape against men more acceptable than rape against women?
It's not a gendered issue, as you said earlier. Questions like that are misdirections. It's a cultural issue (feminism pushes for cultural change) that deals with cultural morals.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
I am informed... That's quite a subtle ad hominem m8.
Sorry. Wasn't my intention.
Originally Posted by Arglax
Pig is just saying that belonging to a minority does not necessarily mean you should receive priorities. He means that anyone in a difficult situation should receive extra help, regardless of race.
I know that. i'm arguing that the reason they're receiving extra help is because of an urgency that isn't present in others. Whether the justified is legitimate or not is another heavily disputed question.
Last edited by Ele; Jun 22, 2014 at 04:02 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele
The fact that he mentioned you ignored it means that it's important to the discussion.
Listing off things that have not been discussed does not a discussion make.
Originally Posted by Ele
It doesn't matter. My point still stands. The reality is there's an urgency for change that isn't present with mens rights.
Yup
Originally Posted by Ele
Yes, and feminists use this as an example of a one of the cultural/moral stereotypes they're trying to break. It's not just a 3rd wave feminism thing either. 2nd wave was all about breaking stereotypes too - 'how women ought to be'.
They want to make rape and domestic violence against women a joke too Surely not! But seriously, 3rd wave is content to create a victim culture.
Originally Posted by Ele
It's nothing if not a feminist issue. It's a part of the moral effort I talked about earlier that's been present in 2nd and 3rd wave feminism. Before that, in the 1880-90s, it was purely socio-political.
Which is a problem, because it isn't a gender issue. Why is feminism tackling non gender problems from a gender perspective?
Originally Posted by Ele
It's not a gendered issue, as you said earlier. Questions like that are misdirections. It's a cultural issue (feminism pushes for cultural change) that deals with cultural morals.
Feminism pushes for female rights. Feminism is entirely inappropriate to deal with non gendered issues!
Originally Posted by Ele
I know that. i'm arguing that the reason they're receiving extra help is because of an urgency that isn't present in others. Whether the justified is legitimate or not is another heavily disputed question.
IMO the reason why men's issues is ignored is because feminism strives to stifle MRA whenever they can. Because of feminism taking ownership of non female issues, because of the 'females are victims' stereotype, and because 3rd wave feminism is concerned only with female rights / anti-male rights, it's practically impossible to have a serious discussion about men's rights without being called a misogynist, while in the same breath they will call rape and domestic violence women's issues!
Feminism is not a vehicle for equality, it's a female special interests group.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
