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View Poll Results: Should they take away the new Clan Rule about multi-clans?
Yes 8 14.81%
Yes, the rule is shit 25 46.30%
No, keep the rule 21 38.89%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 18, 2017   #11
+Ele
Community Manbanger
 
2nd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,307
Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by sir View Post
Some of my personal thoughts, not anyhow related to CS decisions:

Is there any good reason to have a sidekick clan apart from trying to evade the clan system limitations? Well sure, you can recruit new players more recklessly - simply because they don't wear your clan's main tag and you can always appeal to the fact that it's just a feeder clan in case they turn out to be idiots. I remember 2010's Russian clans doing that, but back then there wasn't a proper clan system yet and it was mainly done by "bigger" clans like Hack.
However, recruiting members just for the sake of getting more people doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially for a clan that's been around for years now. Can you still get more people without the feeder clan? Sure. Yes, you'll need to take a closer look at your applicants first, but there is nothing extraordinary about it. We've raised the member cap for all clans who are at least slightly active (getting past level 10 isn't that hard, see [AS]), so it's less of an issue than it could be few months ago before the clan system update.
Having feeder clans officially allowed also poses a threat to any other legitimate unofficial clan as players may just join a child clan of an already official one rather than risk their time and TC trying to become official on their own.


To me this whole situation looks like Parrot (being one of the oldest active clans with 50% staff or ex-staff members) thought they could do anything just because they are who they are, but it turned out they can't. You still had at least 10 free spots in your clan after the clan update, go play some wars if you need more. Like seriously, you only have 66 wars and the clan has been around since the clans system was introduced. All Stars had more wars this week than you had in the last 2 years, like are you being serious? There are 9 clans founded in 2017 who were more active than Parrot, what makes your clan more special than them? (Quick tip: winning a clan event does, but not in that sense)

Your whole bullshit argument there sir is based on the unfounded assumption that we created Parakeet just to avoid a membercap.

That was not the case. We wanted to develop players who wouldn't normally get into Parrot into players who could. Not a lot of people who apply for Parrot end up getting in. Parakeet would develop members into better members. That was the point of it.

So kindly piss off with your bullshit argument based on membercap limits, sir.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #12
Ping
 
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Join Date: May 2013
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Clan: Parrot



It just so happens, that we as a clan decided to hold off on making Parakeet live until we had actually went and raised our membercap.

We raised it, we have spots now. We started Parakeet. It has in no way shape or form changed from the original post almost a month ago til now one what it was going to be or what it is now. Rai and duck both approved it. They approved an even more outrageous version.
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Last edited by Ping; Nov 18, 2017 at 08:54 AM..
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #13
-sir
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Your whole bullshit argument there sir is based on the unfounded assumption that we created Parakeet just to avoid a membercap.

...

So kindly piss off with your bullshit argument based on membercap limits, sir.

Please Ele, I know you can read; my post wasn't just about the membercap.

Originally Posted by Ele
That was not the case. We wanted to develop players who wouldn't normally get into Parrot into players who could. Not a lot of people who apply for Parrot end up getting in. Parakeet would develop members into better members. That was the point of it.

That's exactly what I said in the beginning of my post, yes. You want to be able to recruit new people but don't want them to have Parrot tag because making sure they're worth it takes time you don't want to spend. But isn't that something that you have to do when your clan is massively known? What makes you unable to recruit them to Parrot now, put them in some "Recruits" rank with no management perms and give them guidance until they can become full members?

Saying it again, to me it looks like you found a loophole in a system, tried to abuse it but started whining when it got closed. There may be more reasons why you think a child clan is necessary but so far I haven't seen any of you mention it.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #14
Hush
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,139
Clan: Parrot



From my understanding Parakeet was made so we'd get to know more people who would otherwise be unknown. I have never been a famous person, staff, and didn't really know people in Parrot for the most part, but here I am, in Parrot for like 3-4 years and I feel like I fit in and made a lot of friends. Truth is, that age where we would accept random people who seemed cool and had a good app are somewhat over. We've built up a reputation and consider our member spots a lot highly that we'd rather not risk adding some random person we don't know who made a good app. While just adding well known people is good and all, it doesn't add a WHOLE LOT of interesting discussions and such.

So, we decided to have an unofficial clan for people to assimilate into Parrot. Its not strictly a feeder clan, more of an extension to the Parrot community. While this may seem pointless to some, its simply the most convenient one for us. We are a clan that heavily uses irc still and only a portion of us use Discord. Instead of having interested people hang out in irc to meet some of us and use Discord to meet some more, and post in our forums to meet with the rest, why not just just give them an existing community? The reasoning is simple: People don't like to wait. A person who isn't well known but would otherwise be an enjoyable addition would probably not get in for a few weeks, and eventually give up and join another clan. Another recruit lost because we're strict in our applicants.

Instead of that, extend them an invite to Parakeet. They may find that they enjoy the players there enough to stay, and maybe if they're more close to the Parrot clan we can send them an invite. I really don't see a moral issue with this. we aren't doing this for a higher membercap, we aren't going to farm wars on them (you can spy on our war history if you don't believe me), and the argument that we're going to ruin other unofficial clans is honestly a little ridiculous. Does anyone remember Bleu? Clans were thriving even though they were accepting any and all applicants, which is more than Parakeet would accept.


I'm just trying to get our point across without being rude, a lot of other Parrots feel extremely shafted because we put a lot of work into this only for it to be shut down for what some people believe is a personal beef, which I can personally attest to as a real possibility.
#justiceforparakeet
#justiceforparakeet
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #15
Yuma
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Posts: 292



Y'all saying that Parakeet was made because Parrot wants to see a new wave of players in their group, but want to maintain the image and prestige that people associate with the clan name.

Because of this, y'all cannot just pick any random person out there, and those who join rarely fit the quota (assuming they weren't discouraged to apply at all).

Instead of relying on the current recruitment system, you folks decide to make a child clan as a way to "mold" players into what you deem fit instead of sitting there hoping someone good shows up. A mutually beneficial relationship.

A more active way of working with the community to increase your ranks w/o being saturated with crap.

Eh?
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #16
Hush
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,139
Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
Y'all saying that Parakeet was made because Parrot wants to see a new wave of players in their group, but want to maintain the image and prestige that people associate with the clan name.

Because of this, y'all cannot just pick any random person out there, and those who join rarely fit the quota (assuming they weren't discouraged to apply at all).

Instead of relying on the current recruitment system, you folks decide to make a child clan as a way to "mold" players into what you deem fit instead of sitting there hoping someone good shows up. A mutually beneficial relationship.

A more active way of working with the community to increase your ranks w/o being saturated with crap.

Eh?

Yes and no. We aren't afraid to hide that we're pretty elitist, but you don't have to try and make us look like jerks for it. We aren't trying to mold people to our fitting, just trying to scope out any outstanding members who would otherwise be unseen. Also, Parakeets isn't totally made just to feed members into Parrot, its another separate community that we can take part in while also making sure we have at least a little bit of control who's in it, just a lot less strict as Parrot is.
#justiceforparakeet
#justiceforparakeet

Last edited by Hush; Nov 18, 2017 at 09:25 AM..
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #17
Slau
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,904



i personally think the reasoning behind disallowing clans like parakeet is just. i also think toribash is not a constitutional democracy, and it shouldn't be, because it's simply a community for a company who made an online ragdoll simulation game. having the community make the rules does not work the same way it does in the real world. also polls don't really work if you're having a head start of ~50 people. using the forums as a means of feedback is ok but i personally think you could've read the rules for the staff complaints section and contacted rai first as he has ultimate responsibility over this decision, before goading the entire community against this decision.

also if parrot can have parakeet back, then TLL gets [BIG] back ok

Last edited by Slau; Nov 18, 2017 at 09:33 AM..
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #18
Yuma
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Originally Posted by Hush View Post
Yes and no. We aren't afraid to hide that we're pretty elitist, but you don't have to try and make us look like jerks for it. We aren't trying to mold people to our fitting, just trying to scope out any outstanding members who would otherwise be unseen. Also, Parakeets isn't totally made just to feed members into Parrot, its another separate community that we can take part in while also making sure we have at least a little bit of control who's in it, just a lot less strict as Parrot is.

I don't have anything to add to this thread anymore, but I stopped by to address your response and defuse some bad vibes.

No, I am not trying to make you guys look like jerks. To say people don't join clans for a sense of importance would be a lie; I have no problem with cherry picking elitists lol.

Keep the negativity astray. I am actually supportive.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #19
Hush
SLAMMIN'
 
3rd Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,139
Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
I don't have anything to add to this thread anymore, but I stopped by to address your response and defuse some bad vibes.

No, I am not trying to make you guys look like jerks. To say people don't join clans for a sense of importance would be a lie; I have no problem with cherry picking elitists lol.

Keep the negativity astray. I am actually supportive.

I see. I assumed you meant to prove a point via bold, and it felt you were trying to paint Parrot in a negative light
#justiceforparakeet
#justiceforparakeet
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #20
&Fear
 
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Code:
<Fear> whatever the intention of this clan is, in my eyes its objectively an elaborate loophole past several limitations which tthe clan system purposefully imposes
Code:
<Fear> its not against any written rules no <Fear> that doesnt make the concept ok, it doesnt mean it doesn't circumvent the limitation and growth aspects of the toriclan system, it doesn't mean real unofficial clans arent gonna be squashed, it doesn't mean this isn't essentially a creative way to put your clan's app thread in the unofficial board
Actually I think quite a few people can already see this rationale, however people seem particularly annoyed that this decision came down like a ton of bricks and should have happened before Parakeet was launched, which is true and has already been apologized for, but in case you didn't read that, sorry.

Consider the position here:

If we let parakeet live, and allow feeder clans, we now have to implement a whole new set of rules relating to them, how they will work, how many you can have, what they should look like, yadda yadda. I'm confident Parrot wouldn't use an idea like this with anything except good intentions, however intentions are fleeting and there's no way I can put this in my mind which brings any benefit to anybody except the owners of the feeder clan. Is Parakeet the worst thing that ever happened to clans? Hell no. Does that mean it's ok? Also no. Bad.

If we let parakeet live but ban feeder clans, now we have a clan with an unfair gain not only over unofficial clans, but also over the other official clans too. We've made an exemption to a rule for no reason. Bad.

If he kill parakeet and ban feeder clans, now we have consistency in the enforcement of the policy and avoid the quagmire of extra rules and measurable negative impacts these types of clan would have. Should this have been dealt with better? Yes, however in my mind no staff group should ignore rules or allow the continuation of something it strongly disagrees with just for the sake of its public appearance (maybe ES needs its appearance, w/e).

There was one more point raised: we made this decision quickly. Would you rather have had parakeet running for another week before this happened? I'm very surprised this is a complaint point.

Last edited by Fear; Nov 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM..
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