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Old Mar 4, 2016   #11
panttersin
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Going to comment on kicking since thats my special area.

First of all, I personally believe in default toris for competitive play. Every comp mod should have the same tori in my opinion. From a mod making standpoint custom toris are more interesting. But for a player, having one tori to learn absolutely perfectly is the way to go. Learning each mods meta, playstyle and adjusting that to gravity is already a task. Learning a different tori for each mod on top of that doesnt feel right.

Ill go over all the points briefly, and compare them to the current best competitive kicking mod, erthtkv2.

"- I've focused heavily on compensating for high-traffic areas on the tori. Two areas in particular are the legs and the wrists(arms). "

I think wrist dms are not as big of a problem as they are made out to be BUT increasing wrist dm threshold is a welcome change. with the 120 dm of erthtk and the 100 of TK wrists are pretty glassy. Just make it sure you cant punch into a kick with an extended wrist and that should be fine.

"* I've decreased (by a lot) the amount of points that a strike to the leg gives you/your opponent. I've done this to ensure that the majority of the points you/your opponent receive are due to substantial, conscious strikes, and that if you use your legs to strike you are never in danger of somehow giving your opponent more points than you get when you kick them. "


I disagree with this. If you have played erthtk as a duel mod or on a "high level" you'll know that shoveling is actually pretty god damn strong. And there are only a few ways to counter a 100% defence openers, one of them being shin/ankle kicks. Removing power from ankle kicks would increase the already strong "ultradefensive" play.

* I've messed with the joint-specific dismemberment thresholds on the arms and legs. Currently they stand at ankle(210) > wrist(190)> hip(165) > shoulder(152)> knee(155) > elbow (147)> rest of the tori(140)

I feel these are a bit high. For example 210 is almost the double of the standard erthtk dm, but cant say without any testing.

" I've set the dm threshold on the knees/elbows a bit lower than the hips/shoulders in order to keep one from losing an entire limb at the root when they get kicked really hard in the shin)"

I don't think this is really a problem with the current kicking mod

"
- Legs are now much more versatile and suited to striking than arms are
* Legs are very slightly longer than default to give a bit of extra reach and offensive power
* The point distribution has been altered so that legs give less points than arms, making arms riskier to attack with
* Joint strengths and velocities have been slightly raised/lower on the legs/arms respectively
* Densities have been altered so that legs and arms are slightly lighter, but legs are more suited to building momentum with"

As said earlier I dont think a competitive mod should have a mod tori.

"* Major points overhaul, consists of lower points on high traffic areas and simple gradients from the torso up"

Nothing wrong with this as long as you can still shinkick, and going for the head is always the goal.

"* Introduction of a(n experimental) cage to contain the match and force encounters over the entirety of the match."

I personally dont like idea of a cage since you can use it to create alot of force when otherwise it shouldn't be possible. When you have a surface other than the floor to push from, you dont have to worry about your balance as much. But I'm not going to say that a cage is an absolutely a bad idea, just a personal prefrence.

"* No dq"

Perfectly fine, one the problems with TK/kickboxing is that everything dq's while the dm threshold is so low. I wouldn't mind a dq mechanic but not having one is fine as well.

* Medium-low gravity (-15.68 )

-15.68 seems like an oddly specific number but 15 is a good gravity for kicking for sure

"* Slightly longer turnframes (13)"
I completely disagree with this, for the same reason as I disagree with the tori mods. Competitive mods should have consistency! No other mod has a weird number like 13 in it, and I believe you would add it just to make your mod "special", not because it would benefit the gameplay. Learning a new 13 frame jump that is slightly different from the standard 10, just feels pointless.


As a conclusion. Random dms arent too much of a problem that you need to raise the DM to be like 180 or anything that high. I honestly think all around 140 is enough, but thats just me. Strict no from me for the mod tori. Other than that, all the points seem quite functional.
And one thing to remember is that the more speed you add, the less control you give.

Last edited by panttersin; Mar 4, 2016 at 06:10 AM..
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Old Mar 4, 2016   #12
pouffy
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Okay, seriously, this is a huge help and thank you very much for doing this. I'm a little lost in this whole thing and an "expert opinon" helps me a lot.

Originally Posted by panttersin View Post
Going to comment on kicking since thats my special area.

First of all, I personally believe in default toris for competitive play. Every comp mod should have the same tori in my opinion. From a mod making standpoint custom toris are more interesting. But for a player, having one tori to learn absolutely perfectly is the way to go. Learning each mods meta, playstyle and adjusting that to gravity is already a task. Learning a different tori for each mod on top of that doesnt feel right.

Ill go over all the points briefly, and compare them to the current best competitive kicking mod, erthtkv2.

The way I see it, it's about adjusting the tori to the meta. I mean, it's been 10 years since toribash came out. A lot of mod and gameplay related development has happened, but everyone still plays with toris whose wrists give as many points as their necks. Of course, that's up to debate and from here on out I'll probably start working from two versions of the mod just to compare and contrast.
(the changes I've made are actually extremely subtle, and you might not have ever noticed them if I didn't point them out)

Ah, and I should probably warn that I'm a lenshu player, so I'll make a lot of loose comparisons to there. It's all I'm really familiar with, so I've drawn on a bit of my knowledge there to try to make blumbering around in the dark making a kicking mod a bit easier.
I think wrist dms are not as big of a problem as they are made out to be BUT increasing wrist dm threshold is a welcome change. with the 120 dm of erthtk and the 100 of TK wrists are pretty glassy. Just make it sure you cant punch into a kick with an extended wrist and that should be fine.

Now that you bring that up, the thresholds on the wrists might be a bit high. I haven't payed a whole lot of attention to exactly how I've used them in testing (I've been a lot more focused on how suddenly versatile and reliable they are lmao).
I disagree with this. If you have played erthtk as a duel mod or on a "high level" you'll know that shoveling is actually pretty god damn strong. And there are only a few ways to counter a 100% defence openers, one of them being shin/ankle kicks. Removing power from ankle kicks would increase the already strong "ultradefensive" play.

Alright, noted. I think I already have a way in mind that I can redesign the point gradients on the legs.

I mostly took the idea there from my experience in lenshu3ng.tbm. Legs are typically the primary tool for striking there, and because they are such "high traffic" areas, a lot of bumps and scrapes occur that can literally be chalked down to nothing but bad luck. Nerfing the points in the legs a bit solves the problem tremendously there, although I did overlook the fact that you have a lot more control over what you're doing in tk mods than you do in lenshu3ng or rk-mma.
I don't think this is really a problem with the current kicking mod

Well, not with erthtkv2. Although, it was an issue in an earlier version of the mod where the thresholds were just simple gradients up the limbs. It was actually a little humourous. But yeah, I just wanted to clarify that, as on paper it looks a little bit odd.
I personally dont like idea of a cage since you can use it to create alot of force when otherwise it shouldn't be possible. When you have a surface other than the floor to push from, you dont have to worry about your balance as much. But I'm not going to say that a cage is an absolutely a bad idea, just a personal prefrence.

In testing, I have noticed that a little bit. I can't say whether it makes gameplay worse or not, but it does definitely change gameplay. I'll see if I can think of any other alternatives to a dojo other than the cage.
-15.68 seems like an oddly specific number but 15 is a good gravity for kicking for sure

Okay, this one was totally because I'm a bit of a special snowflake. Won't lie there. I have a thing for the number 68. I can always clean the number up (and I tend to in final versions)
I completely disagree with this, for the same reason as I disagree with the tori mods. Competitive mods should have consistency! No other mod has a weird number like 13 in it, and I believe you would add it just to make your mod "special", not because it would benefit the gameplay. Learning a new 13 frame jump that is slightly different from the standard 10, just feels pointless.

Surprisingly enough, unlike the above 15.68 thing (which is actually a bit embarrassing when you point it out lmao) 13 wasn't arbitrarily chosen. Something I've learned from playing lenshu3ng and rk-mma is that a lot can change with just a small adjustment to the tf. Heck, even adjusting lenshu's 30 tf to 25 makes blocking a lot easier and more manageable, because you do have that opportunity to react.

The other side of the coin is, if you make the tf too minute you just can't do anything in a turn. What I was trying to do with the 13 tf is balance that a bit better: reaction vs. action, I suppose. I mean, just adding 3 frames to each turn added 45 frames total to the match.

At least, that's what was going through my head when I tried it out. Of course, everything in the mod is pretty experimental since kicking isn't my forte, so changing it won't leave me butthurt or anything.
As a conclusion. Random dms arent too much of a problem that you need to raise the DM to be like 180 or anything that high. I honestly think all around 140 is enough, but thats just me. Strict no from me for the mod tori. Other than that, all the points seem quite functional.
And one thing to remember is that the more speed you add, the less control you give.

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Old Mar 5, 2016   #13
Odlov
 
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Finally got around to checking it out. I really like the little cage you made, and like the idea of making leg strikes score more points than hand/arm strikes. Helps really steer it into the kicking direction. I think 13 tf may be a bit much for a kicking mod since it makes it more opener-dependent, but then I don't even play kicking mods so idk.

Also disagree with panttersin about modifying toris, though that's hardly surprising since I do it all the time. Default toris are very unrealistic (in terms of joint strengths, ranges, proportions, and points allotted for injuries) and if you're serious about making a realistic mod then you're best off changing many things. For example, default toris have shoulders with 4 strength each, ridiculously high, while hips (load-bearing joints that should be a bit stronger) only have strength of 2. This is why in aikido shovels are so op. Abs, the joint that supports the whole upper body, have just 3 strength in default, less than one shoulder. I cranked abs up to 7 in sumore_e. Wrists have strength of 2, which is same as elbows or hips, and that's clearly wrong as well. Should be more like 0.60-0.80. Default velocities and weight distribution is also a bit off. Points are also dumb. Breaking opponent's wrist should give you more points than giving him a half-assed kick to the leg. Breaking his neck should give way, way more points than breaking his wrist. In default you only get 15,000.

Of course none of this matters if you don't care about realism. I do though. As for consistency across mods, I don't think there's need for that. You learn each mod by playing it. The toribash fundamentals stay the same, and you get quickly used to any differences in joint strengths/velocities or w/e.
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Old Mar 5, 2016   #14
panttersin
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Originally Posted by Odlov View Post
what he said about realism and toris.


I agree totally, for example when it comes to realism I love binklawz's mods that have massive torimods. But I'm talking about competitive play. For competitive play you should have a standard tori for every mod, since we have such a large amount of competition mods at the moment. If we have 5 different tori's its just going to be overwhelming. I know your fetishes regarding torimods, but I don't think competitive play and torimods fit together.

Originally Posted by Odlov View Post
what he said about consistency

On this I disagree almost 100% The toribash fundamentals stay the same, sure. But the high level control that sets apart good and the best can be attained only through experience and master level understanding on the tori. Using many toris rewards average understanding of all of them instead of mastery of the most important tori, the default one. Why would you want to make people play average toribash with modded toris instead of high level toribash with default toris?

Last edited by panttersin; Mar 5, 2016 at 07:26 PM..
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Old Mar 5, 2016   #15
Odlov
 
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I think you're greatly overstating how difficult it is to adapt to modified toris. Seasoned players should need no more than 5-6 games to get a good feel for the new set-up. Besides, different mod attributes like dismemberment threshold, frames and gravity can have at least just as much impact on gameplay, but you wouldn't ask for consistency there. Someone who only played wushu will almost certainly fail when he starts to play aikido due to the differences, and those two mods have same exact toris. But with some experience, he can get just as good in aikido.

Anyhow, we can just agree to disagree
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Old Mar 17, 2016   #16
pouffy
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Why am I so bad at updating my thread

Alright, two different wips. The kicking and the striking, once again.

kicking



striking

Attached Files
File Type: tbm kicking_test07.tbm (10.1 KB, 1 views)
File Type: tbm striking_test03.tbm (15.6 KB, 1 views)
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Last edited by pouffy; Mar 19, 2016 at 02:52 AM..
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Old Mar 20, 2016   #17
pouffy
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I feel like its in bad taste to bump my own mod thread but these are pretty experimental and I'd like some feedback on em. I also added them to the OP
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Last edited by pouffy; Mar 20, 2016 at 06:09 PM..
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Old Apr 1, 2016   #18
pouffy
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Hi, new mod + an update to the striking mod.

Download is in the OP

I've had this one finished-ish for a while, but I've been hesitating to add it because I am really struggling to think of a name for it. Hence the ridiculous cancerfest it currently is.

Anywhooooooooo

Images




It's an aikido variant with abd-ish turnframes and fixed points resembling the ones used for my striking mods.

I haven't modded the tori at all, so no changes there.

The only new thing (besides fixed points) is the inclusion of a box around the dojo (dojosize ~550). A bit of a twist there though - the box will dq you if you touch it with anything other than ankles, feet, wrists, and hands, just like the floor would. So, this replaces edge-play with complex throws and slams using the walls and floor. If anything other than the previously stated body parts touches the walls or ceiling, it will turn pink and you will "dq."

It should be noted that under the black line on the box, the friction is down so you can't just use the wall to save yourself all the time. Above the line, the friction is way up, so you can take your time up there to deliberate your next move after being lifted or thrown.

Anyways, have fun! Heck, and while you're at it, check out the two mods above this one (kicking and striking).



SPEAKING OF STRIKING, I just updated it. I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner, but I messed with the velocities on the hips, shoulders, elbows, and knees a bit more than they were in 03, and pretty much make comebacks the easiest thing in the world as long as you know what you're doing. Combined with the lattice, I ideally want to see more strategic positioning come into play now that changing your position is easily accessible. Anyways, check it out. Under the striking spoiler in the OP.
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Last edited by pouffy; Apr 1, 2016 at 06:43 PM..
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Old Apr 24, 2016   #19
pouffy
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I renamed that which should not be uttered to twinkido, named after Sparky <3

Also, much more excitingly, I got around to improving acroshu. It's a lot more playable and diverse now, and imo is in an entirely different league from the first one. There are probably some tweaks I can do and if anyone notices any glitches you should let me know.

Downloads are in the OP as always
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Old Apr 25, 2016   #20
peep
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You mentioned a black line on the box. Where's the black line?
previously known as Lopsin
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