I do believe however, that the vid editing scene can however make the competative scene viable.

Not many people actually watch CoD streams, compared to other games atleast, but it is still one of the most popular games in the world, and the edits on youtube are almost considered the pinnacle of esports editing.

if vid editors cowork with casters, creating an analytical edit/showcase of the replay, approaching the competative scene from a different angle, then i believe the competative scene has massive potential.

we already have a competative scene in the single player aspect comparable to the Real freerunning scene, its not so much about the competition, rather than the overall work.

Cods hyper competitive/esports scene is relatively small though.

you can make competative mods from any toribash mods if you mod it more like adding more and more restrictions to shape metagame.

Meh, no one reacted to the part of my post I was more interested discussing about :

"BUT, before all this happens Toribash must "suffer" a few meta game changes to make it more "strict" and suitable for competition : removing running from the striking mods.
The problem is matchs and wins being based on time instead of being based on a fixed goal (a life bar for exemple), that aspect offers the opportunity to score a minimum points and go for a run and avoid fighting, which is pretty "ironic" for a fighting game.
Unlike classic 2D fighting games (FG), moving in the game area is more difficult in toribash and requires particular skills. Classic FG have time limited rounds as well, lets say 2mins for exemple, but during those 2mins you can pretty much attack every 2s, which make avoiding the fight a difficult thing (the opposite of tb). TB have very short matchs in which moving takes a lot of focus and time, it's harder than just pressing forward and jump... and if you don't know the opponent is gonna run you quickly are 1 or 2 turns late on his movements and catching up becomes a whole different story, even more when you're limited by (short) time.
Rings/Dojos are a partial solutions : it makes running harder but it's still here, you can still use the same tactic of scoring low points and avoid fighting.
I think it would be judicious to either make the matchframe limit a lot longer, or give the players a number of points to reach, a goal that would prevent them from running from the fight, forcing them to engage."



Also I think you guys miss the whole point of Toribash from a spectator point of view. This is not like FPS or other fast-paced games that you can watch live, I don't see any LAN competitions of Toribash happening etc... But Toribash being a motion game before everything else, the spectator would be watching the entire replays of the fight.
That means if someone want to see the final of a toribash championship - if we take the competition format I proposed as an exemple - he would have approximatively 20 replays of 4 or 5 different mods to watch in a row, no "cutting" turn frames that makes the game "dull" to watch when it's happening. Of course people who are interested in watching the match happening could still do so, but the main point IS the replays imo.
That makes me think about CS, e-sport afficionados could re-watch the matchs thanks to the HLTV. It was like a replay of the whole match, you could adopt the perspective of each players to study tactics etc... e-sport is not just about "live".

Plus, I think you guys get e-sport and "gaming for money" mixed-up. A game being an e-sport means it is suitable for competitions and it has a "scene" that people can follow like regular sport, it doesn't necessarily involve money.
The money in games comes when the public is large enough for some sponsors to have an audience if they "collaborate" with players. The money is about advertisement and public, not the "e-sport possibility".

Eh, discussing metagame shifts is always interesting. But there's no real point on focusing on the metagame if the scene doesn't get to a widely competitive level. I think this is why peeps are focusing on the spectator aspect of the game. Because if that doesn't flow well, then the competitive scene probably won't take off.

Also I think the majority is right thinking that "live" matters. As I said earlier, what makes the spectator experience important is that good tourneys typically have a fun spectator experience. Sure you might be able to make watching Toribash more interesting though videos/editing or by playing entire replays. But, that doesn't fix the live tourney experience.

I agree that funding is irrelevant and is something that usually happens latter. Relating this to what I said earlier, for games with actual competitive scenes one of the big draws that tourneys have is that they're actually fun to attend. It is not unheard of for a SSB, SF, YuGiOh, tennis, or fencing tourney to be successful without any sort of prize whatsoever. But, that something I don't believe you could ever do for Toribash. The tourney scene and tournaments in Toribash are inherently boring and full of wait times. And I don't think we'll ever get to a point where you can global a tourney without prizes and expect it to be successful.

But the scene will never get to a "widely competitive level" if the needed metagame changes do not happen, which need discussion before it does ;o


That's arguable ! "live" matters on the e-sport games we actually know, but I don't think that makes it an immuable rule. I mean Toribash is a unique/different game, so I don't see why its (possible) scene would be slightly different from what we've already seen.


That's kind of true, but a bit irrelevant for the subject I think. Toribash being an e-sport would not happen under the form of "GM tourneys" : the e-sport needs ladders, a championship. Meaning the players involved in matchs would only be the members of the teams fighting each others.
The people could spectate from outside of the room/lobby via a twitchtv or something similiar, or only waiting for the end of the match and watching the replays.

HLTV was used to watch the games being played 1st and for most though Deprav. You're confusing competitive play with being an esport. There are a lot of games with a good competitive scene that aren't epsorts. Lets take speed running. Lots of people do it on games like Mario 64 and Legend of zelda MM, plenty of people even watch it. It will never be an esport because nobody in there right mind is going to put up substantial prizes for speed runners. Obviously an esport doesn't just come out over night the community has to grow and make their own competitive ladder or tournament, which then usually moves to online tournaments hosted by a 3rd party, then to live tournaments. These last 2 parts are where Toribash will struggle, it is really lacking in marketability.


About CoD, huge competitive seen, cool montage makers, few tournaments not really a stand out in esports. They don't have the backing from the game makers to be very competitive, with a new title being released about once a year or a little longer, and them catering to the fans not the competitive players. Which is good for CoD but it will never be a breakout esport.

@Goodbox, Funding is completely relevant, you don't become an esport then get huge cash tournaments, big online leagues with 1000's of people signed up. You start small, then get funding online leagues, then get funding for live lan events. It may happen later then just building a competitive scene for a game but it is the major stepping stone of becoming an esport, the second and 3rd part are where games fall apart or be come stuck as small groups of very competitive players. Lans and tournaments are fun as hell to go to, but that doesn't bring in big names, do multiple pros for SSB or SF show up to no prize tournaments? Nobody is jumping on twitch to watch amateurs play, and less people will show up to the tourney for the same reason. I mean a local lan with ~100 people is a lot of fun, with little prizes like new video cards, or mice or w/e. But chances are they spend near if not more what they make.(Taking from experience of going to local "weekend lan tournaments" when I was younger). I mean for the pros it is all about the money. Half of Europe's CS:Go Invite division wont be attending the ESEA Invitational lan that is going on this week due to the fact that it will be expensive and they have low chances of winning money with NiP being there.

Considering you even admitted that you don't follow esports, I don't think you're near any position to be able to judge the players' futures. In LoL alone, some of the players dropped out, some finished, and some have put their scholarships on a hold. For example, voyboy, top laner for curse, got accepted into top schools, deferred enrollment with the approval from the college to pursue his dreams, and once it's over he can return to school with the scholarship.



Besides that, I would really like to see a more competitive clan scene in toribash. There's no REAL reward to winning clan battles other than points, and no punishment for losing them.

Banned, what I said was a response to deprav and doesn't work out of context. Even then if you look at the full sentence I said: "funding is irrelevant and is something that usually happens latter."

Anywho, I think I'm out of for this discussion.

http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=417440