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View Poll Results: Should they take away the new Clan Rule about multi-clans?
Yes 8 14.81%
Yes, the rule is shit 25 46.30%
No, keep the rule 21 38.89%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 18, 2017   #21
DruggedPanda
 
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Originally Posted by sir View Post
Some of my personal thoughts, not anyhow related to CS decisions:

Is there any good reason to have a sidekick clan apart from trying to evade the clan system limitations? Well sure, you can recruit new players more recklessly - simply because they don't wear your clan's main tag and you can always appeal to the fact that it's just a feeder clan in case they turn out to be idiots. I remember 2010's Russian clans doing that, but back then there wasn't a proper clan system yet and it was mainly done by "bigger" clans like Hack.
However, recruiting members just for the sake of getting more people doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially for a clan that's been around for years now. Can you still get more people without the feeder clan? Sure. Yes, you'll need to take a closer look at your applicants first, but there is nothing extraordinary about it. We've raised the member cap for all clans who are at least slightly active (getting past level 10 isn't that hard, see [AS]), so it's less of an issue than it could be few months ago before the clan system update.
Having feeder clans officially allowed also poses a threat to any other legitimate unofficial clan as players may just join a child clan of an already official one rather than risk their time and TC trying to become official on their own.


To me this whole situation looks like Parrot (being one of the oldest active clans with 50% staff or ex-staff members) thought they could do anything just because they are who they are, but it turned out they can't. You still had at least 10 free spots in your clan after the clan update, go play some wars if you need more. Like seriously, you only have 66 wars and the clan has been around since the clans system was introduced. All Stars had more wars this week than you had in the last 2 years, like are you being serious? There are 9 clans founded in 2017 who were more active than Parrot, what makes your clan more special than them? (Quick tip: winning a clan event does, but not in that sense)

As far as myself, I don't see us as "special" in any means except for the fact that we are special in the case of that we are a fairly active community in a "dying game" based off of the recent amount of people playing, market activity, etc and any clan that is fairly active at the moment is special for that.

I myself don't consider any of us an elitist, but meh I'm pretty mellow and stuff lol. From what I know, we are wanting to extend our community and give more people a chance to get to know us and meet new people and make friends. That's what life is about in my opinion is to do just that, even if it may be just online.

As far as farming wars, that's a little silly. Yes, it's abusable but let's be honest. There are a lot of things still abusable to this day within Toribash itself that aren't dealt with. Even so, if it was abused it wouldn't be hard to just "delete" our progress and give us a punishment for doing so. You guys do pretty much the same thing to people who farm TC, and ranks so what's the difference with a clan?

I'm not really going to argue that much about all of it but the main reason people are "pissed" about this is that Rai did agree that we could do it, and once we posted it they shut it down.

Now it would be nice if instead of just shutting everything down and giving us the, "it's not what we thought it was going to be" speech, to work with us into molding what we created into something that would acceptable.
That's pretty much all I have to say on the topic about this whole ordeal.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #22
AussieCunt
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No, no and no. Where is the actual proof of 'a few people can actually see this rational'? like besides tribe members and u?

There should have never been this ton of bricks, I can bet my left nut on the fact this was all crafted in the confines of (Tribe) and is just being defended by upper staff friends.

OH LOOK AT US TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND if we let live and have rule if we kill and dont have rule. The whole point of the matter is that the rule was made up with no wider consent than the "CS" 3 of which are in an unofficial clan that is 'threatened' by Parakeet, yet it is also the run off 'Feeder clan' of '[NO]' and other dead clans.

if we kill now and have consistency? Are you literally that daft..this was implemented leterally within 46 hours in the confines of apparently 5 players midst...3 of which or members of a 'threaten unofficial clan' however as i point out, as you did to us... it is little more than a feeder clan for past staff and famous players. I consider this whole charade a joke.

Nabi has left this place children.


Sir also its hard to get past lvl 10 when clan system is broken. (decap have 2500 out of 1350 for lvl 11) fix it
Clan Level: 10



13800 Experience Points
2550 / 1250 XP


Will edit when less heated over this. Sorry sir, ur clan system work. Unoffic is lvl 10
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Last edited by AussieCunt; Nov 18, 2017 at 01:42 PM..
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #23
Moop
 
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Clan: Parrot



Originally Posted by AussieCunt View Post
No, no and no. Where is the actual proof of 'a few people can actually see this rational'? like besides tribe members and u?

There should have never been this ton of bricks, I can bet my left nut on the fact this was all crafted in the confines of (Tribe) and is just being defended by upper staff friends.

OH LOOK AT US TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND if we let live and have rule if we kill and dont have rule. The whole point of the matter is that the rule was made up with no wider consent than the "CS" 3 of which are in an unofficial clan that is 'threatened' by Parakeet, yet it is also the run off 'Feeder clan' of '[NO]' and other dead clans.

if we kill now and have consistency? Are you literally that daft..this was implemented leterally within 46 hours in the confines of apparently 5 players midst...3 of which or members of a 'threaten unofficial clan' however as i point out, as you did to us... it is little more than a feeder clan for past staff and famous players. I consider this whole charade a joke.

Nabi has left this place children.


Sir also its hard to get past lvl 10 when clan system is broken. (decap have 2500 out of 1350 for lvl 11) fix it
Clan Level: 10



13800 Experience Points
2550 / 1250 XP

You gotta chill out man. There are valid points on both sides of this debate, nobody is acting like children here. Slinging insults around both makes Parrot/Parakeet look bad and accomplishes nothing, a reasonable discussion can be had about this and if you want any chance of a resolution, the discussion has to be reasonable and not descend into insults.

My opinion is:
- War/achievement/xp farming is easily monitored (since anybody can see a clan's warring history) and can be dealt with by just making wars (official wars using the forum) between sub-clans against the rules.

- Problems with activity checks is again pretty easily avoided if the clans are considered separately and not together. Obviously I can't leak details of how the activity checks work, but in my mind this wouldn't really be an issue as long as it was clear that any activity in your child clan's thread won't be counted

- Playing twice in clan events, again, is easily avoided just by making it clear that only 1 clan in a multi-clan system can take part

- The points about getting around the membercap and an unfairly large appeal (due to being connected to a well-established clan) squashing other up-and-coming unofficial clans are both valid. Perhaps a compromise for the first could be that any child-clans have an imposed reduced membercap? With regards to the second, it's a pretty valid point.

A point that was mentioned while Parrot were discussing this was how cool it would've been when we were newly-hatched members, if there was an available path to one day get into (for example) Torigod or RAWR. We would never have thought of trying to apply to such an established clan - even though we might have been a good addition, they would have just overlooked us. That's definitely a positive effect for newer/less-known members, but whether it outweighs the negative impact it might have on other official clans (that could have recruited them) is up for debate.

For the record, I still think having child/feeder clans is a pretty arrogant thing, but that would be up to the discretion of the clan about whether they think it would positively/negatively impact their image.

@CS has it been completely decided that child-clans won't be allowed, or is there still some space for a conversation on this?
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Last edited by Moop; Nov 18, 2017 at 01:55 PM..
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #24
Shogun
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I let myself descend into the wrong place there. I'll rehash those comments, I am too heated to make points, without ill intent. I apologize.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #25
&Fear
 
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Originally Posted by Moop View Post
@CS has it been completely decided that child-clans won't be allowed, or is there still some space for a conversation on this?

The conversation is here and now really. Right now I'm still in the camp of 'this brings way more disadvantages and messiness to clans than advantages', for the reasons I'm going to stop re-iterating.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #26
oksasha
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just let parrot do their thing, no harm being done in the process
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #27
Fee
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Originally Posted by DruggedPanda View Post
Now it would be nice if instead of just shutting everything down and giving us the, "it's not what we thought it was going to be" speech, to work with us into molding what we created into something that would acceptable.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Unless both sides are willing to work towards a compromise, you'll get no where.

Why don't you look at reasonable restrictions that could be placed on feeder clans to prevent them squashing all the other unofficial clans, i.e.:

(Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about the new clan system).

- A minimum holding period: Say for example, three months - after which period a user must be inducted into the main clan or booted.

- Restrictions upon which clans are allowed to establish a feeder clan.

- Member caps upon feeder clans based on the level/member cap of the official clan. For example, they can have no more members in the feeder clan than available spaces in the official clan. This will minimise the impact on other clans and ensure the member cap isn't being circumvented.

- Belt restrictions upon who can join a feeder clan, for example a 10th Dan Black Belt should have established themselves well enough already and as such shouldn't be in a feeder clan. This will leave the established players to join other clans, and provide newer members a solid route to follow into the world of clans.

I'm sure the Clan Squad can think of more/better restrictions, considering it is their area of expertise. Also, and again this may be an argument from ignorance since I don't know clans well, what is the problem with discouraging new clans slightly - surely it's better to have quality over quantity when it comes to clans?
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #28
Butler
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Well I mean, farming can be moderated, it's really easy to do so by checking war logs, and you can implement harsh punishments to people farming.
I mean, just because it's a feeder clan doesn't mean it's the only clan able to farm, I'm sure other clans have done it with each other before?
Just think of Parakeet as it's own separate clan, which just so happens to give people a chance at joining Parrot?
The original idea was that: new players see clans like Parrot or any official clan and think there's no chance in hell that they'd be able to join so they don't even bother applying.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with Parakeet, it's its own separate clan. I'm sure there has to be another feeder clan out there that hasn't officially been declared a feeder clan. Can't blame us for being straight to the point and open about it.

Not intending to sound rude or anything. I just feel this whole rule thing is ridiculous considering we got the go-ahead already but get shut down a day after launching it.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #29
Wicked
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Clan: Parrot



Er, why are clan staff acting like this is something that has just arisen? "In light of a recent incident"
Clans have been doing this for years, Evil has done it many times, and even Sir said he can remember Russian clans doing the same thing in 2010.
That's my biggest issue with it, why is this only being addressed after literally 7/8 years?

Also, most of the arguments here about how it is unfair to new unofficial clans etc are pretty much void with the introduction of free clans. You have all these trolls clans running about, countless clans with 1-2 members who never post a description thread, and so on. Most new players only want a fancy clan tag and don't care much for the history of a clan.
With the free clan rule you've harmed the clan system more than ever and yet you think that these sister clans are the ones taking away members and hurting other unofficial clans?

I'm never one to bash on staff but c'mon guys this is just dumb.
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Old Nov 18, 2017   #30
&Fear
 
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@Fee your issues can be much more easily resolved with higher membercaps / no membercaps and 'trial' ranks or etc.

This approach has far too much attached to it.

As an aide, if a clan doesn't want somebody to wear their tag because they don't fit their image, then just don't add them to your clan? TLL gets a lot of people poking me ingame asking to join; I tell them to hang out in our discord or to post around for a while. If we don't like them, then they don't get invited.


@Butler yes, we could let feeder clans exist and then continually check up and monitor them to ensure they're being used exclusively as trail / training periods for the real official membership (or whatever other innocuous reason a feeder clan might have for existing). However the benefits of feeder clans are so far and few between, and only applicable to the parent clan, that I don't see a reason to allow them and then work continually to maintain a system with so few pros and so many cons. Again, feeder clans are not the worst thing in history, but I just don't see why we'd ever allow them. 95% of other official clans get along completely fine without them.


@Wicked just because something has happened in the past, doesn't mean its a good thing. I'm (not speaking for all clan staff) fine with the image of clan staff going into the pits of hell / annoying some people if it means implementing something which should be implemented.


@Surge implying a feeder clan and its parent clan as being two completely separate entities is silly.

Originally Posted by Surge View Post
Regarding the rules themselves:

They're two different clans, and 90% of posts I saw in Parakeet were from Parakeet members, not Parrot members, where's the issue?

See my response to Fee's post; this is a terrible approach to trail membership.

Originally Posted by Surge View Post
How's that any different to a revival (see: Tribe)?

Because a reviving clan does not have two recruitment threads, a board, a manpower of many active members. A reviving clan needs to gather together its old members who may not even be active anymore - it has no leg-ups compared to a regular unofficial clan: it's a group of friends or like-minded people who clan together for some purpose and who run through the process until they want to become official, which they still must apply for.

Last edited by Fear; Nov 18, 2017 at 04:40 PM..
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