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Old 1 Week Ago Original Post  
Natejas

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Toricredit Board Rules Rework
So with the events currently taking place I've taken it upon myself to do the inevitable and create a thread with a rework of the rules currently in place regarding the selling of TC. In the spoiler below will be a set of rules proposed by myself based off the currently standing rules and this thread will act as a platform to either agree with my propositions in support for the change or debate what you think is wrong with it. Either way, your input is appreciated.

Toricredit Section Rules



I personally believe the application for verification to sell TC should stand no matter where it takes place, such as in-game, PM, etc. Anywhere someone can attempt to either sell or buy TC is able to be documented with a screenshot, the current rule of needing to take place in the Toricredits board and there only is useless due to this. Screenshots of any transaction occurring in-game are promoted through other global rules and should with common sense stand here as well. With what I've proposed it's putting more trust in the players but that's what the verification process is for, to ensure they're suitable to sell TC. People being banned for not scamming people and really just further showing their ability to sell TC honestly is nonsense. This systematic approach of 0 and 1 is not what Toribash needs, empathy and understanding of the situation need to be considered. With time zones, livelihood, and lack of staff effort it doesn't make sense to implement this current rule, the inconvenience outweighs the pros this rule offers. With my proposal none of this matters, people who sell TC casually continue to sell while those who are not supposed to face reasonable repercussions.

Common arguments debunked;

"The toricredit board is fool proof and can never be faked"
Almost any documentation provided with a scam cannot be faked, and if faked requires more effort than the majority would willingly commit too. Do we inconvenience the masses for an anomaly?

"This makes it easier for people to just sell TC because no one will report"
Well that's also a great flaw with the rule currently implemented, anyone can still sell TC and if no one reports or makes a big deal out of it, higher ups wouldn't know, yet people still get banned for it which leads me to believe that if unverified sellers attempt to sell there will be someone who reports them. My suggestions justs get rid of the useless waste of time and embarrassment of having to face the repercussions of being a trustworthy person being over moderated.

---

Please do leave you're comments and concerns as I would like to hear from more people and potentially better understand what the community would like and could come up with in an effort to stop the unjust bans that occur over this rule.

Useless/Off-topic post will be reported.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #11
Smaguris
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If a user buys TC for a bad rate due to his ignorance, that's his decision to do it. Why should users be guided by their hand when it comes to buying TC? As diamond mentioned: their money - their responsibility. If a user agrees to certain rate that's his way of saying "I find value in this rate" whether he's informed or not.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #12
snake
 
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tc seller apply to be verified seller by making a thread with his credentials / whatever

if he is approved to be a verified seller - he can post in this thread as a way to backlog his transactions and deals he made

for example,

Smaguris makes a thread on TC selling board with his paypal credentials or whatever, amount of tc he has to offer and trade rate, link of transactions he had or whatever is necessary now

thread is put on premoderation

market squad checks if the Smaguris is not a scamming piece of shit and generally have a positive history (trustworthy) and approve thread (it becomes visible, making him verified tc seller
market squad members adds a footer that says:
"if you are being asked to send money to credentials that differ from the ones provided in this thread - you are being scammed, please report the person"
and also insert a bbcode of amount of tc he got on the account,
and in ideal world, a snippet (in worst case iframe) of his transaction history, so anyone can see
the whole append to post can be automated obviously

Smaguris is NOT allowed to edit his thread, if he changes his paypal account or discord or whatever credentials - he has to make a request to a member of a market squad asking to change it

Smaguris can make new posts in his thread
anybody who wants to buy tc form him, can post in the thread aswell

for each transaction he is making he must make a post of said transaction occuring, screenshots proving the deal, or just agreeing with it in the thread,

if there is no proof that there was a deal and tc seller is reported for scamming - he gets banned for scamming, otherwise - all good


situation 1:

i want to buy 10 tc to get orc force
i decide that the best course of action for me is to buy tc from a 3rd party,
i go to tc selling forum
i lurk around a few threads and decide that smaguris's price is good
i communicate with the seller, as he is verified, since his thread is allowed
i post in the thread or pm or discord by the contact information provided in OP
i talk to him, we make a deal
he / me make screenshot of deal made and it's later posted in the thread
i send $10 to credentials he provided, and also make a screenshot to use later in case of being scammed
i recieve 10 tc and buy orc force

if i don't recieve tc - i make a report, add screenshot of transaction and request ban

situation 2:

i want to buy same 10 tc, but this time ingame
to verify that this is real Smaguris and not a scamming cunt, i right click on his nick and open his profile, where in his sig he have a link to his tc selling thread, i can be sure that this is him, because he have same number of posts and a name.
we make a deal ingame, make screenshots


a) i send $10 to credentials provided in the thread, and screenshots of transaction in case i'll get scammed
i recieve tc, Smaguris post on his thread screenshots of the deal he made, i post that i really like the way he made me spend $10 on 10 tc and recommend him as a great seller itt, everybody happy

b) if Smaguris is asking me to send $10 to credentials that are different that the ones provided in his tc selling thread, saying that's his brother credentials, i make a screenshot, call him a cunt, report him and hopefully see him banned by staff

c) i sent $10 to correct smaguris but didn't recieve 10 tc
i make a report with screenshots of deal and transaction
staff deals with it the usual way
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15

Last edited by snake; 1 Week Ago at 11:03 PM..
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Old 1 Week Ago   #13
Tempest
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The system is fine the way it was designed to be but it seems in practice a very specific scenario has brought up some complaints. This could be easily fixed to benefit both sides by for one, follow the rules and do the sales the right way. secondly, have a active staff member or on rotation with other staff members check the tc thread every 15-30 minutes to speed along the selling process so it isn't considered a inconvenient process. If both sides of this debate would agree to something like that then all the problems would go away.
oh is this where i put my signature?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #14
Insanity
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the most simple and rational way to make this better and faster is to remove that aprovall of threads. people that can post there are already verified trustworthy sellers.
the only inconvenient of the actual rules is that you have to wait up to 2 days for a lazy squid to approve your thread and that is stupid.
if that was to be revimed it would all go smooth. then market squad can run their checks all they want.

if that verification is to see if the person is an actual verified selller, then make a bot that only allows peiple from the verified list to post in that board.
= SELLING MARKET INVENTORY =
Pm me for deals

Last edited by Insanity; 1 Week Ago at 09:01 AM..
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Old 6 Days Ago   #15
Creati0n
 
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I'm sort of running on limited fuel -- it's 1:30am and I just got back from my vacation -- so I'll just be focusing primarily on the suggested rule change for this post. Other aspects of the thread I'll take a deeper look in to some time tomorrow.

Here's the current rule found in the Toricredits Section Rules & Guidelines thread:
Originally Posted by Rule C.
C) Any user (including Verified TC Sellers) found to be selling Toricredits outside of the Toricredits board will receive immediate account suspension. This includes in private messages, the in-game servers, and all other platforms that are not the Toricredits board.

And here are the major points of as to why we currently do not allow TC sales to be made in-game, in PMs, or other platforms -- as well as a little snippet on why we have your threads auto-close:
.
  1. IT'S THE FOOLPROOF METHOD
    Yeah, yeah, I know this one's been heard a lot, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate this: a forum post is the only documentation we (the staff) have access to that cannot be doctored by a regular user. PMs can be hard-deleted and screenshots from Discord or in-game can be altered/edited, but a forum post is forever.
  2. THE SYSTEM PROTECTS THE BUYERS
    The Market Squad do their absolute best to verify where your TC sources come from, which is exactly why we require you to remake your selling thread every five days -- we like to make sure you aren't farming boosters, gaining TC through illegitimate sales ingame or other means.

    We make sure that those duels you do are corroborated through games you played in your game history; we make sure that that 300,000TC you got from user123 was because you sold him a nice texture set; we make sure that your latest 17,000,000TC from imahacker69 wasn't from him exploiting TC into the economy.

    The list could go on, but the point of this is to keep our sellers in check!
  3. THE SYSTEM PROTECTS THE SELLERS (yes, it does!)
    reference: link

    A little more than a year ago, multiple accounts of well-known users were hijacked and had a significant portion of their TC and items sold on the market -- completely unchecked. About $500 worth of items and TC were documented stolen, and it's definitely safe to assume that their were unreported incidents that occurred in PMs or in-game that we just couldn't find.

    Now, with the current Toricredits board system in place, we ensure that you are the person who is requesting that your thread be put up to sell off your accumulated wealth -- not some scummy asshole who's accessed your account and wants to sell off all your items and TC before you even get the chance to report it.

To close, yes, there are reasons on as to why we have these rules and guidelines in place. You may not appreciate them when they're annoying and you have to wait on your thread to be opened, but rest assured that this system was implemented entirely for the benefit of the community -- it's definitely more work on us since this system's been put into place.

Hopefully this post acts as a bit of an eye opener on why we have these rules. If there's any other questions or concerns regarding them, I'm more than happy to respond via a post in this thread, via forum PMs or via Discord DMs.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #16
Smaguris
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Sure the system is there for a reason, but it's a very bad system cause it requires loads of human input and hours of waiting on some actions. I still don't understand your point about not allowing to deal in-game and other places, because surely if we post a screenshot of a deal in the same thread, it should make no difference to you where the deal was made as long as you got a record of it. If you're talking about faking something like an in-game screenshot, then the same could be said about duels and other market transactions that occur in games. Why not make everyone create a thread on forum before duelling items? It just sounds silly.

Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
we like to make sure you aren't farming boosters

But that's exactly what Prince is doing.

Last edited by Smaguris; 6 Days Ago at 08:46 AM..
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Old 6 Days Ago   #17
Diamond
 
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Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
[*]IT'S THE FOOLPROOF METHOD
Yeah, yeah, I know this one's been heard a lot, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate this: a forum post is the only documentation we (the staff) have access to that cannot be doctored by a regular user. PMs can be hard-deleted and screenshots from Discord or in-game can be altered/edited, but a forum post is forever.

Forum posts may be forever, but scammers don't care about evidence against them. You can ban their 100 alts all you want, they'll create 100 more. But you won't get people's money back.

Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
[*]THE SYSTEM PROTECTS THE BUYERS
The Market Squad do their absolute best to verify where your TC sources come from, which is exactly why we require you to remake your selling thread every five days -- we like to make sure you aren't farming boosters, gaining TC through illegitimate sales ingame or other means.

We make sure that those duels you do are corroborated through games you played in your game history; we make sure that that 300,000TC you got from user123 was because you sold him a nice texture set; we make sure that your latest 17,000,000TC from imahacker69 wasn't from him exploiting TC into the economy.
The list could go on, but the point of this is to keep our sellers in check!

Nobody would try to create a thread on the TC selling board if they earned TC illegaly, they would just sell tc in game or via discord and you guys would never know about it.
Which is what happens all the time. Proof of that is me getting banned while Shmevin wasn't banned, despite the fact that we sold TC to the same person at about the same time. And Shmevin wouldn't get banned, had he not admitted to it to help me in the discussion about this rule and my ban.

Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
[*]THE SYSTEM PROTECTS THE SELLERS (yes, it does!)
reference: link

A little more than a year ago, multiple accounts of well-known users were hijacked and had a significant portion of their TC and items sold on the market -- completely unchecked. About $500 worth of items and TC were documented stolen, and it's definitely safe to assume that their were unreported incidents that occurred in PMs or in-game that we just couldn't find.

Now, with the current Toricredits board system in place, we ensure that you are the person who is requesting that your thread be put up to sell off your accumulated wealth -- not some scummy asshole who's accessed your account and wants to sell off all your items and TC before you even get the chance to report it.[/list]

No, it really doesn't. Even ignoring the fact that all it did was getting 2 honest TC sellers banned.

If somebody hijacks an account, they won't try to create a thread(it would be the dumbest move everrrrrr), they'll just sell everything in game or in discord. So you guys won't have any chance to catch them before it's done.

As far as I know, if this system was in place a year ago, it wouldn't prevent any of the scams that happened. Accounts would still get hijacked, TC would still get sold in irc or in game or wherever they were sold. No scammer would ever try to create a TC selling thread. That's why they're scammers, they don't care about your rules!

Originally Posted by Creati0n View Post
To close, yes, there are reasons on as to why we have these rules and guidelines in place. You may not appreciate them when they're annoying and you have to wait on your thread to be opened, but rest assured that this system was implemented entirely for the benefit of the community -- it's definitely more work on us since this system's been put into place.

I agree that this system is annoying and that it's more work for you and everybody else... except scammers! It's only becoming easier for them to scam people, because honest sellers are getting banned or prohibited to sell tc, while scammers get to offer the most convenient deals which are the most likely to be accepted by unknowing people.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #18
snake
 
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@Creati0n:
nobody cares what the intentions were/are

we are discussing that the rule needs to be changed, why and how.

nobody here needs to read your justifications for the policy.

your job is to take active users input and co-op with them to get the better solution, the one that makes tc selles happy and doesn't introduce headache for you.
thats all.

i'm baffled that it takes weeks of debates to change a clearly inconvenient and mostly pointless rule.
you have active tc sellers that know their field better than you do.

don't make posts, read them, cooperate with interested parties.

i guess that's why we can't have nice things, staff thinks that it always knows better and ignores interests of people it should try to target.

this place truly never changes
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15
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Old 6 Days Ago   #19
Smaguris
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Originally Posted by snake View Post
..i guess that's why we can't have nice things, staff thinks that it always knows better and ignores interests of people it should try to target.

this place truly never changes

This. Couldn't agree more.

Instead of taking our concerns and trying to find alternative solution you're simply justifying the same old system listing its benefits and ignoring the flaws. We're not here "complaining" about how dumb staff is, we're actually listing what could be changed and even giving possible suggestions on how this could be achieved. The least you could do as a staff member responsible for this field is discuss the points brought up rather than try to justify your system.

I think diamond outlined very well why your points aren't very relevant to this system, especially the 3rd point. There is literally nothing you can do to stop a person, who has access to another account, to sell TC (unless you completely remove functionality of sending TC). There will always be someone who will be willing to take the risk of buying from illegitimate source with a benefit of a good rate. This system does not address such issues.

Last edited by Smaguris; 6 Days Ago at 05:28 PM..
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Old 6 Days Ago   #20
Insanity
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this game has more rulles then my country.


es squad dosent host ingame or forum. all stuff does now is to enforce ''rules''


its terrible


Originally Posted by Rule C.
C) Any user (including Verified TC Sellers) found to be selling Toricredits outside of the Toricredits board will receive immediate account suspension. This includes in private messages, the in-game servers, and all other platforms that are not the Toricredits board.

does that me you are not allowed to advertise your tc sellig thread ingame or discord?
= SELLING MARKET INVENTORY =
Pm me for deals
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