Original Post
[War] Current ranking system.
Hello.
I've been extremely "motivated" to play the game these past few months just because of the war system. I love competitive gaming and enjoy Toribash so combining those in a clanwar is so much fun for me. But I just heard from GM's (Moop, Smallbowl) that the ranking system is completely uncompetitive. For example the ranked #1 clan [Wapow] in the last 50 games have lost 24, which is almost half (26 wins 24 losses). On the other hand # 41 [Parrot]s full record is 25 wins 4 losses. [Wapow]'s full record is too long to document so I only took the last 50 games seen, so the data isnt fully accurate but still very clear. There should be no reason [Parrot] is ranked #41.
What is the point of a ranking system, if it does not encourage winning? How can you rank clans if the point system is unable to record even remotely accurately the best clan (which Im not saying we are)? Getting only points for winning in a ladder where you can war as much as you like is indeed a bit pointless.
In order for Toribash to generate even the slightest hint of esport viability (which would be awesome) fixing the ranking system should be high priority. At its current state it does not encourage winning other than "for honour", and it definitely does not give any gratification from being a high ranked clan. The knowledge that it doesnt really matter if you win or lose does really lower my motivation for warring.
I really hope to hear about the problems that my proposal might pose and would be more than happy to help the mod team in this problem to create a better ranking system and a better competitive enviorment for us all.
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EQUATION FOR RANKINGS (important shit)
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I will address the problems and solutions in PS.
1. How?
There are plenty of algorythms and scripts of ladder/ranking systems online, and If that is hard to implement, even a simple 1 point per lose 1 point per win would be better than the current system.
2. Would It cause clans to only play games that are certain wins?
If the point system rewards winning higher ranked team then definitely not. It would actually benefit the lower ranked teams to challenge higher ranked ones. Thus creating a richer and more diverse ladder.
3. Clans would only pick their own mods then?
My proposal is that in "ladder matches" if agreement on the mod cannot be found its half and half mods, each clan chooses an official mod and its split. If both are fine with lets say ABD, no problem.
4. It would deter casual players from warring?
Possibly, but then again the games casual nature is the largest part of the experience already. Dedicating a small part of TB to competition would be fine in my opinion
5. What about the current ladder?
That is up to the devs, I personally would be fine with a reset or implementation into the current standings.
Pros:
-Easy to reward active clans and players with prizes for winning.
- Brings "professionalism" to warring.
-Competition is fun and so is winning, it is very satisfying to climb the ladder and achieve a higher rank when you really deserve it!
Cons:
-Implementation could require some work/programming which I dont understand so I cannot comment on it.
I've been extremely "motivated" to play the game these past few months just because of the war system. I love competitive gaming and enjoy Toribash so combining those in a clanwar is so much fun for me. But I just heard from GM's (Moop, Smallbowl) that the ranking system is completely uncompetitive. For example the ranked #1 clan [Wapow] in the last 50 games have lost 24, which is almost half (26 wins 24 losses). On the other hand # 41 [Parrot]s full record is 25 wins 4 losses. [Wapow]'s full record is too long to document so I only took the last 50 games seen, so the data isnt fully accurate but still very clear. There should be no reason [Parrot] is ranked #41.
What is the point of a ranking system, if it does not encourage winning? How can you rank clans if the point system is unable to record even remotely accurately the best clan (which Im not saying we are)? Getting only points for winning in a ladder where you can war as much as you like is indeed a bit pointless.
In order for Toribash to generate even the slightest hint of esport viability (which would be awesome) fixing the ranking system should be high priority. At its current state it does not encourage winning other than "for honour", and it definitely does not give any gratification from being a high ranked clan. The knowledge that it doesnt really matter if you win or lose does really lower my motivation for warring.
I really hope to hear about the problems that my proposal might pose and would be more than happy to help the mod team in this problem to create a better ranking system and a better competitive enviorment for us all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQUATION FOR RANKINGS (important shit)
here
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will address the problems and solutions in PS.
1. How?
There are plenty of algorythms and scripts of ladder/ranking systems online, and If that is hard to implement, even a simple 1 point per lose 1 point per win would be better than the current system.
2. Would It cause clans to only play games that are certain wins?
If the point system rewards winning higher ranked team then definitely not. It would actually benefit the lower ranked teams to challenge higher ranked ones. Thus creating a richer and more diverse ladder.
3. Clans would only pick their own mods then?
My proposal is that in "ladder matches" if agreement on the mod cannot be found its half and half mods, each clan chooses an official mod and its split. If both are fine with lets say ABD, no problem.
4. It would deter casual players from warring?
Possibly, but then again the games casual nature is the largest part of the experience already. Dedicating a small part of TB to competition would be fine in my opinion
5. What about the current ladder?
That is up to the devs, I personally would be fine with a reset or implementation into the current standings.
Pros:
-Easy to reward active clans and players with prizes for winning.
- Brings "professionalism" to warring.
-Competition is fun and so is winning, it is very satisfying to climb the ladder and achieve a higher rank when you really deserve it!
Cons:
-Implementation could require some work/programming which I dont understand so I cannot comment on it.
Last edited by cowmeat; Oct 23, 2015 at 12:49 PM.
I completely agree with all of this and it over all makes more sense like this
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I fly like how you guys are putting effort to make the changes you want also I like this idea supported
I be that fan for siscon, lolicon, any form of pixlepussy I can pooled my dick out and skeet on it buakky on they face
Originally Posted by DrHax
Alright I'm going to try to explain why I believe most rating systems collapse in Toribash, because I've talked about this at great lengths and changed my view point many times.
ELOs are designed specifically for One vs. One matchmaking systems. The perfect example of a pretty much perfect ELO/MMR system is Chess. So now having said that, we can establish two things Toribash would need to be to have an actual ELO system:
1) One vs. One Fighting
2) A matchmaking system
We've got #1, we don't have #2. Their is absolutely no form of match making in Toribash. The closest we have are rooms that are separated by belts, but as we all know, Games Played is far from 1 to 1 with skill. Much like their are people with 200 games played in Challenger rank in League of Legends and people with 1,000 games played in Bronze 5, there are good Toribash players with only 1,000 games played and some crappy ones with 6,000 games played.
Because you can play against anyone at any time, and you get to choose who you play, the system is entirely broken. If Bobby Fischer wanted to get a higher rating in chess, he couldn't just target 1000 MMR players, and farm them like nothing. He exclusively played the absolute best players in chess, as that were literally the only games that affected his rating.
Any "pick your opponent, every game counts" system is going to get exploited no matter what your variables are. It's extremely obvious that this is the chief problem in rank both in Clans and on the individual level. I guarantee you "Frost" (who?) didn't get rank 1 globally by playing a bunch of boxshu_mushu vs. high level players like Shmevin. And I hardly think "Litmuz" (who?) should get rank 3 globally because he played a crapton of Shaolin Soccer. If they had to actually play good Toribash players, they would be the ones getting farmed. And on the Clan level, (make no mistake I mean no malice or ill intent by saying this. I respect the shit out of these clans for what they bring to the game): WAPOW keeping ranked 1 in Clans for it's wins against "Shaolin"(who?), "MHE Dead Clan"(who?), "Sprite"(who?), and "TeamAsu"(who?) is the same equivalence. Every year in clan league a lot of these clans try to compete, which is awesome I'm glad they do. But every year, they show why the top 10 clans in the Clan List Ranking System are all not actually anywhere near the top clans in strength. Small exception being Obey, who haven't come close to winning any major event, but at least usually make the top 16 and do bring a lot to the table to mid-tier to low high-tier play. Nitro last year in Clan League shocked the scene by destroying Inq to pieces. Their performance in Clan Siege; however, was a bit on the weak side. I believe their were roster changes.
So we would have to drastically change how we rate players and clans in order to make them reflect strength. The problem with that is, there isn't incentive for developers to do that. If newer unofficial clans of younger people, who are extremely active, see themselves rising the ranks to #1, they get super excited and play a bunch more. They play a bunch more as a team too. They get hooked to Toribash, and they spend money on this game. Toribash devs are probably going to value the money brought in by keeping the "Ranking System" as a "Pat You on the Back System" over actual assessment of skill among clans and individuals. Anything that encourages activity in Toribash, especially to this degree, is a homerun. Luckily, they still host the biggest event in the year, Clan League, where we can see how strong clans actually are in a fair setting using actual competitive mods.
Didn't we settle upon having ranked servers and unranked servers fixing this problem? Just set public servers to "rankinteraction=0" and have dedicated ranked servers so that we finally separate the two aspects of the game: Having fun, and competing. The ELO system in itself is not problematic, but the way it is implemented has not fixed the problems of the rank-system it were set out to fix in the first place, and having a matchmaking system built around a crappy system in the first place doesn't sound like a good idea, does it?
Now doing recoloring for people not in the clan as-well, PM for more info!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
Alright i went inactive for a bit, Gonna continue doing this now
