Originally Posted by Dscigs

I was merely pointing out that drugs and extreme workout technologies are not the only avenues you can possibly take, as some people seem to think. I'm saying it's the actual training that makes a difference.
Steroids can help, and there's no difference between using them because it's essentially at it's simplest just super-packed bacon. In competitions they should be banned, to give everyone a fair chance at winning. Most probably the guy who trains and takes steroids will be able to win out over the guy who doesn't take steroids because one guy is building muscle mass far more quickly then the other.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

So can't someone who wants to be "natural" just take a bit longer to build muscle mass then? What's the problem with that?

Originally Posted by DrHax

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here but if that's a genuine question the problem with that is there's a natural potential people can hit without using steroids and it comes usually around 2 years of serious training. Steroids don't just make things faster, they raise the ceiling for your potential by a great deal.

Originally Posted by DrHax

1) Anabolic steroids don't enlarge organs. Human Growth Hormone does. They are very different.

2) Chris Benoit didn't kill people because he took steroids. Steroids don't turn you into a lunatic. Being a lunatic makes you a lunatic, adding steroids just makes you a lunatic with big triceps.

Originally Posted by DrHax

Absolutely nothing is fair about what is natural. Steroids are actually a step closer to fair than what natural has done for us.

One person can have double the testosterone of another person, it's not fair, but it's true. And neither would be allowed to get a prescription for TRT in the states even if they wanted.

An excerpt from my Exercise Physiology class: "80% of sport's performance relates directly with genetics. There are even some who care considered 'non-responders' who simply don't improve their performance through exercise".

If we drug test our athletes every week, and actually gave them a set amount of steroids, then it'd come MORE down to their work effort than the randomness of what's natural. It'd actually be more fair.

Ethics aside of course.

Originally Posted by DrHax

What you don't want is the match to be decided in advance because someone was born with some weird deformity that made the boxer's hand be near metal-like. What you don't want is the game of League of Legends to be decided by the fact that because of some weird neuron situation a kid lucked out into faster reflexes and muscle memories that he was born with. Having testosterone isn't a skill, you can't work on it, it proves nothing of a person's character, commitment, or work ethic, and it's not what sport's are about. That's why testosterone levels shouldn't be a limiting factor of one person's success when we have remedies for this that when used appropriately are safe.

Originally Posted by DrHax

When you take steroids, your body doesn't naturally create testosterone anymore, because it senses it doesn't need to. Meaning if everyone took say one gram of test, everyone would have one gram in their system and what happened naturally wouldn't matter anymore.

Originally Posted by DrHax

It's not cheating at all if everyone is doing it, then it's just the rules of the sport. Steroids right now are "cheating" because it goes against the rules of most sport federations; however, that could be remedied.

Originally Posted by DrHax

Finally- some people are under the impression that steroid use is a bad thing. What they're failing to account for is that it isn't steroid's use that's causing the plethora of problems that people cite. It's steroid abuse that's bad. You can take steroids without experiencing a cocktail of terrible irreversible side effects.

Originally Posted by DrHax

No. No it's not. It's nothing like that at all. You want the best boxer to be the best because he's worked harder at perfecting his punches than anyone else, you want an e-sport to revolve around the fact that someone has studied the match-ups more spending the long hours for his love of the game to be the reason he's a world championship league of legend player... tediously going into single player practicing last hits. What you don't want is the match to be decided in advance because someone was born with some weird deformity that made the boxer's hand be near metal-like. What you don't want is the game of League of Legends to be decided by the fact that because of some weird neuron situation a kid lucked out into faster reflexes and muscle memories that he was born with. Having testosterone isn't a skill, you can't work on it, it proves nothing of a person's character, commitment, or work ethic, and it's not what sport's are about. That's why testosterone levels shouldn't be a limiting factor of one person's success when we have remedies for this that when used appropriately are safe. If we could set everyone to the same height for basketball safely, I'd be down for that as well.

When you take steroids, your body doesn't naturally create testosterone anymore, because it senses it doesn't need to. Meaning if everyone took say one gram of test, everyone would have one gram in their system and what happened naturally wouldn't matter anymore.

How "legal" something is isn't relevant at all. We can always make something legal if it's right.

It's not cheating at all if everyone is doing it, then it's just the rules of the sport. Steroids right now are "cheating" because it goes against the rules of most sport federations; however, that could be remedied.

You say "a lot of people could have this sort of success, they are just lazy", well that's a load of crap. Are plenty of aspiring athletes lazy and not putting in enough effort? Absolutely. But it's a crock of shit to say more than the 1% of the 1% of the 1% have the genetic potential to be professional athletes. You need pretty much everything to go right. There are so many things effort can't overcome.



Finally- some people are under the impression that steroid use is a bad thing. What they're failing to account for is that it isn't steroid's use that's causing the plethora of problems that people cite. It's steroid abuse that's bad. You can take steroids without experiencing a cocktail of terrible irreversible side effects.

Originally Posted by Arglax

In your last few posts, you have been putting that elevated hormone levels can account for incredible muscle gain without any effort at all. Is it sports ethics to make this the standard?

Also, this would make more sense if these freak genes rampantly occur. However, in reality, what you portray are extreme situations that get more attention than normal situations. You confirm this in your own post ("the one percent of the one percent of the one percent, ...") Just because a very small amount of people are very lucky to be born with extreme genes, does not mean everyone's performance should be raised artificially to reach this ceiling as well.

Need a source. Anabolic steroids only mimic hormones, they're not the exact same thing. I'd be surprised if anabolic steroid usage completely eliminated natural production of hormones.

If everyone starts using, you're still going to have differences accounted for by genetics that you want to eliminate by legalising steroids... Who or what are you going to blame then?

Just because this is possible, does not mean that it is also the most commonly-occurring scenario. We need data to show whether ab- or correct use is more common.

Lastly I would like to reply to Gorman: yes, diet, exercise, sleep schedule, equipment, ... all play a major role and are not natural. As opposed to steroids, however, these all require some form of effort. With steroids, you're just gambling on your own health and waging your own metabolism to significantly gain more muscle.

Originally Posted by LeLight

Its just like me and arglax said, if they both take the same amount of steroids(same exact ones too) the difference in natural testosterone levels will still exist. Even if what you say about the body no longer producing natural testosterone after taking the drug, its gonna come down to who can, and is willing to spend money on more steroids. Some people are born rich and sill be able to afford more than those that are poor. You gotta understand that natural is probably more fair than than the smallest dose of anabolic steroids. A small amount can raise you're 'potential' exponentially... How is that fair for the guy who cant take them/cant afford them. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you cant make anabolic steroids fair at all. How is it fair that two twins were utterly on par in every way. They do the exact same exercises, same effort, have the exact same body, same genetic make up and all. One takes steroids and he gets a leap ahead, totally fair. wtf?

Anyways, would you let this in a boxing ring with one of your natural fighters(say they're in the same weight class, and both like 10-0):

So much muscle its NSFW

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Letting someone like this compete would jeopardize the health of everyone involved, are you trying to shorten the human life span even more?