This isn't all wrong, however, it is very unlikely.


I know this game was and is designed for casual fun by Hampa and co, but I thought about the whole "Toribash is the next big esport" for a few minutes logically and realized something. If you look at games like smash brothers, league of legends, csgo, dota2, starcraft 2, overwatch, and many others you will realize 2 things.

1: There is an element of rng in each of these games, this is necessary to create diversity even if the actions taken by both competitors are completely identical on two separate occasions, and this leads me to reason number 2.

2: The amount of possible outcomes, while not infinite, are too many to count. Why is this important? Well think about Super smash brothers melee for a second, I'm using this as an example because it is also a fighting game. Melee has 26 different characters, each of which has multiple light attacks with heavy variations, multiple smash attacks, grabs of different ranges, shields [possibly of different durations? I dont remember]and multiple other special abilities with small amounts of rng connected to them that have to do with hitboxes and frames. Anyway my point is, there are too many different outcomes to count between any two characters, and there are a couple hundred possible matchups. Add in the fact that there are multiple stages [equivalent to mods in toribash] and that just adds to the possibilities.

Anyway I'll make the main point short since the math doesn't really do anything other than hammer home the point. The point is toribash has a finite number of joints, a finite number of joint movements[hold, relax, extend,contract and hands can either be grabbing or not grabbing], and a finite number of participants per match within one mod. Why does this matter? Well, Toribash has zero rng as far as i'm aware, point generation is the same, dismemberment and fracture threshhold is always consistent within a single mod [aikido.tbm for example has a 325 dismemberment threshhold and a 200 fracture threshhold, i'm not sure exactly what these numbers mean to be honest now that I think about it, but the important thing is that they don't change] which means that the same joint collisions and interactions will always lead to the same result whether it be a dismemberment or a fracture, furthermore each joint movement following a fracture will have the same result because a fractured joint is the same thing as a relaxed joint according to the game. What does this block of text mean? Well it means Toribash is a solvable puzzle.

Think of it this way, a puzzle has a pre-determined amount of pieces. The image may be different for a different puzzle(mods), but a 10,000 piece puzzle requires 10,000 pieces to be a completed image, furthermore, even if all the pieces are pure white, each piece is required to be placed in the same location in respect to each of the other 9,999 pieces for the image to remain the same. Now think if each joint is moved in a certain way in respect to each of the other 39 joints at all times, the outcome of the game will be the same. If both uke and tori relax all at 500 frames on aikido.tbm, the result will be a draw 100 times out of 100. If this weren't the case that would be what you call rng, however this game would be unbalanced if too much rng were to be introduced because players rely on the certainty that Effect A will be the outcome of Cause A and Effect B will be the outcome of Cause B at all times. If that were changed then suddenly the law of physics within the game no longer remains absolute.

Now, "why does any of this matter?" You might ask. If anybody, and I mean anybody, decided to solve Toribash and leak the information...then that would be the end of the game. Just think a complete noob could download Toribash and search 'Toribash Guide,' but instead of finding a helpful post of the forums or an informative youtube video he would find a spreadsheet that contains the 100% CORRECT move for any possible situation within a mod. The way to implement this idea would take a little theorizing just because of the limited time you have to move all your joints thanks to the reactiontime function, but with practice it would be doable.

There are a few ways to fix this, but I don't feel like typing them out currently so if anyone important feels like asking me just ask on the thread or pm me. Also, I thought up the ways in which you could actually turn this idea into a reality if anyone is interested in breaking the game for the small price of a few hundred hours of tedious work, or is smart enough to come up with software that can simulate everything idk.

pls no delete for exposing the fact that toribash is a game able to be solved

~Grim

P.S Someone may have realized this a long time ago or even attempted it and been banned. It would take a little work but I know for a fact I'm not the first person to think of this in the past 11 years.

Chess has less variations than toribash, it also doesnt have the "luck" / "randomness" element given by inputting moves at the same time. It could be seen as more solvable than toribash. However chess is clearly far more competitive and successful than chess and could be put in the same category as esports in that its debated whether it is or isnt a sport, but it is highly competitive regardless.

Chess has not been solved, and does not appear to be solvable with the power of computers that is currently available. Toribash is more complex than chess and could not currently be solved by a computer either.

Chess doesn't have less variations than toribash at all? If you add in every single mod then MAYBE, but that's also why true chess computers are very difficult to beat unless you're a genius yourself playing against them. Each movement is represented by a 20 character value that's visible if you type /opener[0/1] in the game and it will look like this: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-- if you relax all first turn. There is r which stands for relax, h which stands for hold, -- or ++ shows whether the hands are in a grabbed state or not, and b which stands for bend i presume. While this code doesn't specify contract or extend, each turn has this code. By recording the exact code for each turnframe for each character(tori and uke) and inputting the result[relax all from frame 1 vs relax all from frame 1 = draw 100% of the time for example] you're left with a tree diagram that has multiple winning paths and losing paths.

There's the possibility that I overlooked a variable, but theoretically the possible amount of moves within a single game of chess are over 288 billion according to google, I don't think toribash even hits anywhere close to a million if you're talking about a single mod.

The variables I have:
2 Characters
2 Hand positions
2 Hands
4 Joint positions
20 Joints

Unless I'm forgetting something huge there's no chance this outweighs the possibility of unique positions in a single chess match.

Edit: Actually I did forget one, Human Error, but this will still lead to the result of a joint moving a certain way so this has no quantifiable value, or rather, it doesn't affect the end result at all.

With the variables youve given the number of possible combinations for the first move is:

Total 40 joints with 4 positions each

4^40

Times 4 hands with 2 positions each

2^4

2^4 * 4^40 is approximately 1.934*10^25; There are 6.72*10^13 times more possibilities in 1 turn than in the entire chess match. Toribash games are usually around 15 turns.


Its so much more complicated largely because its possible for all 40 joints and all 4 hands to be moved in 1 turn rather than being limited to 1 piece moving at a time.

I'm not checking this math right now because I've been up for 24 hours and it's not important enough, but from what I remember from the scientific notation I learned it seems accurate, thanks for fact checking me \o/

Edit: I found a calculator, math checks out.

are you sure there's absolutely no rng in this game at all
have you never gotten randomly dmd out of nowhere with no one touching you and no big momentums happening at the time in taekkyon??
have you never experienced the game glitching out in replays or multiplayer when you ghost through a cylinder shaped bodypart??
HAVE YOU NEVER TRIED TO MAKE A REPLAY USING SYMMETRIC MOVES ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT THE GAME ENGINE IS FLAWED AND WILL PRETTY QUICKLY STOP BEING SYMMETRIC EVEN THOUGH ALL YOUR MOVES SHOULD BE

there's a TON of rng involved in this game because this game is pretty much completely just a physics simulation and computer generated physics and especially collisions which happen in the game all the time are nowhere near perfect

for example imagine you're kicking someone super hard in a multiplayer game
the way this engine works it just checks if you're touching anything every frame
if you're moving fast enough, you can go completely through the other player between 2 frames so that in both frames you're not touching anything even though you went through the other player
in this case the game decides you didn't touch anything
so let's go back to you kicking your opponent, there are 2 possibilities: either you happen to hit your opponent when a frame is registered and you get the sickest kick ever OR you happen to touch your opponent between 2 frames and the hit is not registered and you just go through as if he never was there
obviously the game does not give you enough information for you to be able to tell frame perfectly if you're going to get that sweet hit or not, especially since your opponent is also moving unpredictably

there is obviously a lot of rng at play and no way of ABSOLUTELY MASTERING THE GAME LIKE AN OMNIPOTENT BEING especially since the game doesnt tell you enough information for you to be able to use THE ABSOLUTE COUNTER MOVE every time even if you happened to know something like that


/rant

Its not technically RNG, no random numbers are generated. Although it may seem random, and it is unpredictable due to the complexity of the engine - its not actually random. He is correct to say there isnt RNG in the game (but luck can be considered a factor in matches)

If Toribash gains enough popularity it can easily turn to esport. Some edited aikidoish mod with stricter thresholds for dm and fracs and other changes for fairness.

Aikido will never be esports with toribash's current grab system. Odlov is the only one making esportish mods because he doesn't use grabs which just break the game almost entirely and make a lot of your next movements rely on luck because you have no way of telling what move they're going to make which could entirely shift your momentum because he's grabbing you and you're grabbing him. There is no threshold on how much force you can withstand before a forced let go. The grabs grip makes superman look tiny in comparison.

I'm no good at aikido, but that doesn't mean I can't spree randomly, that's not esports.

None of that is rng though, other than the occasional glitch that may occur with high speed collision, if you move joints exactly the same way the same exact "random" dm should theoretically occur. It may not every time when "ghosting" is in play but that's a glitch not rng.