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These "PC's" are only so expensive because they are Apple Products ^^
You pay only the Brand!
Better buy a good PC which is doubled powerfull and only costs the half...
I bought a Gamer Notebook from this Site:http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/to...hs1&l=de&s=dhs

It wasn't very cheap but you can play everything ^^
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Originally Posted by Vox View Post
So Apple fail to adjust to the market properly, most PC manufacturers that survive tend to adjust properly.

You use such an umbrella statement, Apple is great at adjusting to the market, which is why they have such an immense market share in tablets and smartphones.

Originally Posted by Vox View Post
With reference to discs; don't assume you hold the one true opinion on this:
http://www.1up.com/news/study-sugges...refer-physical
If people really thought DVD and Blue-Ray were dead, they wouldn't be used as much as they are. I can understand wanting to lead people into the future by declaring them dead, personally I prefer a digital storage medium my self, but it's not like I don't use them if my computer suddenly bricks its self and it needs to be fixed, and 'going for the future' isn't the same as observing the market as it is today. Overall, people use discs, they are helpful, get over it :P

They are unnecessary and inconvinent. I can't remember the last time I used one, and even among family and friends they are hardly used.

If people thought it is 'better' to have a floppy drie, that doesn't mean it would be.

Originally Posted by Vox View Post
I'm a PC fan boy? So basically everything other than Apple? I mean, it's not like I dislike C64's or ye olde acorn computers. This is a dead argument, it makes no sense and never has, so what if I'm a fan boy of PC's? Macs underlying architecture is the same as PC's, what I'm talking about is business practices. The most you can say here is that I'm biased, at which point I can provide sources to back my assertions up, go for the substance of my points, not this work around.

So you admit you are biased huh?

That explains your arguments and your inability to understand how Macs fit in...

Originally Posted by Vox View Post
OK I have a plan, I don't know enough about mobile hardware, that's why I said it was off topic, so if you believe a Mac Pro will beat a competitors offer, please demonstrate this, I don't find my self to be knowledgeable to do it my self. If you do this please post it here or link me to it, I'll read it and respond to the best of my ability, given the comparisons you draw to demonstrate your own points. If you find your self in the same position as I am in, and can't do it your self, please stop asking me to do it and move on. (oh, and posting a link to someone else who has done it is also fine, just realise I'll assume you agree with any points you link, and don't state that you don't agree with.)

Huh, now I am asked to prove a negative huh?

But sure, I will bite

Not going to bother with the Macbook pro 13" because it is brutally obvious that nothing else in the category can compete with it.

M15x vs Macbook pro 15"
i7-840QM 4x1.86GHz | Intel Core i7 4x2.0GHz
8GB (4GBx2) 1333MHz DDR3 | 8GB (4GBx2) 1333MHz DDR3
256GB SSD | 256GB SSD
Slot Load 8X DVD+/-RW Drive with DVD+R double layer write capability | Slot Load 8X DVD+/-RW Drive with DVD+R double layer write capability
1GB DDR3 ATI Radeon HD 5730 | The Core i7 is sandybridge
$3,434.20 | $3,089.00

Do I really need to outline which one is better? Dell actually had worse pricing than Apple, so if I had max speced them then it would have been crazier...
Originally Posted by Gorman View Post
You use such an umbrella statement, Apple is great at adjusting to the market, which is why they have such an immense market share in tablets and smartphones.

Not what I mean, I was referring to what you had said, so the context was desktops and specifically their 'old desktops', not the whole market.

Originally Posted by Gorman View Post
They are unnecessary and inconvinent. I can't remember the last time I used one, and even among family and friends they are hardly used.

If people thought it is 'better' to have a floppy drie, that doesn't mean it would be.

Frankly; no one cares what you or I think about CDs, the market still wants them, and yes, if the market wanted floppy drives the products would be better suited to the market, however that's not typically what the market wants.


Originally Posted by Gorman View Post
So you admit you are biased huh?

That explains your arguments and your inability to understand how Macs fit in...

Ad hominem attacks wont persuade me at all, I can only assume your using this because you either want to show off or just don't like me, either way keep it less personal.


Originally Posted by Gorman View Post
Huh, now I am asked to prove a negative huh?

But sure, I will bite :)

Not going to bother with the Macbook pro 13" because it is brutally obvious that nothing else in the category can compete with it.

M15x vs Macbook pro 15"
i7-840QM 4x1.86GHz | Intel Core i7 4x2.0GHz
8GB (4GBx2) 1333MHz DDR3 | 8GB (4GBx2) 1333MHz DDR3
256GB SSD | 256GB SSD
Slot Load 8X DVD+/-RW Drive with DVD+R double layer write capability | Slot Load 8X DVD+/-RW Drive with DVD+R double layer write capability
1GB DDR3 ATI Radeon HD 5730 | The Core i7 is sandybridge
$3,434.20 | $3,089.00

Do I really need to outline which one is better? Dell actually had worse pricing than Apple, so if I had max speced them then it would have been crazier...

All right, I'm surprised you responded to the challenge but I'll bite, before I do however remember I'm not asking you to prove a negative in the sense you are alluding to, a quick explanation of the logic here involved:
The way I assume you see it:
I provide evidence mac's are over priced, you say it's inadequate, I ask for evidence mac is not overpriced.
Now, that is a negative, however this can also be stated as:
I provide evidence mac's are over priced compared to Dell, you say it's inadequate, I ask for evidence that dells (or any other major PC manufacturer of your choice) are over priced compared to macs. In my words: "...if you believe a Mac Pro will beat a competitors offer, please demonstrate this..."
It's not the same as saying; 'prove the non existence of x', it's just show that 'y>x' not 'x>y'.


Onto the actual argument: (I'll be using the dell/apple UK stores so expect prices in GBP.) (Also, you didn't really analyse this, so I'll do it for you.)

(NOTE:
I can't find the M15x with the quoted GPU, so I've re run the whole thing based on what I found on Dell's website, the options where a .5GB and a 1.5GB, and you said that maxing it out would be worse so I went for the 1,5GB)

Price:
We'll start with price and see if it's justified:
£2,188.99 compared to £2,453.99 is a difference of £265, so what are the hardware differences?

Screen:
First, you'd think they are both simply 15" notebooks, right? Well, Apple have different screen resolution sizes, the Dell by default has 1600x900, while apple by default uses a 1440x900 screen, they offer a 1680x1050 for £80, or £120 with antiglare, they are both LED backlit, so good screens, we'll say this is a £65 difference, since the ratio from 1600x900:1680x1050 multiplied by 80 is around 65. £200 left.

CPU:
Mobile CPU's are one thing I don't know, so I'll be leaning on review websites largely for this, first the mac book pro uses an intel core i7 2635QM, and this is a current generation processor, by all accounts this is better than the 840QM the Dell uses, however the price difference is the other way around, that is to say, the Alienware M15x uses an older more expensive CPU, probably because it was designed a while ago iirc. Based on cinebench the difference from the Mac:Dell is 3696:3426 (single), or 13504:9316 (multi), which is around 35% better (averaged), I can't reasonably estimate the cost of this, so for now, we will say the mac is £200 cheaper and 35% better.

RAM:
Practically the same, we will consider this null.

HDD:
The SSD's while the same size are probably slightly different speeds, however I can't find any information that seems reliable, so we'll say they are equal. (This is why I hate reviewing mobile products.)

ODD:
Seem to be the same.

GPU:
Now, to avoid being mean, I'll assume you either just don't care about GPU's or didn't notice the difference here. A 1GB dedicated GPU is not comparable to intels integrated sandybridge GPU's which at best compare to a passive GPU such as the 5450, I'm actually reviewing this with a 1.5GB GTX 460M, even brining up spec tables doesn't demonstrate how wide the gap is here, but simply put what this means is Dell values this component difference at £200, (and this more than makes up for that %35 difference, this makes the mac much less desirable in comparison).

Summary
They are different classes of mobile computers, one is a gaming PC (the Dell) and one is a media PC (the mac), the 460M costs more than the price difference between them, and makes up for the performance difference of the CPU's, considering the Mac used an integrated GPU this is eventually a whole components difference, the Mac is basically one component short, so no wonder it's cheaper. Oh and on a last note if your defence is "GPU doesn't matter" then I know I'm right about this ;P. I'd consider them both well priced decent notebooks, this is certainly a tighter competition than the desktop market, but I'd say Dell won despite your sarcastic suggestion otherwise.


(This will be my last response on line of argument, so you can consider this a closing argument, feel free to make one your self.)
Last edited by Vox; Apr 5, 2011 at 09:12 PM.
Originally Posted by Vox View Post
Not what I mean, I was referring to what you had said, so the context was desktops and specifically their 'old desktops', not the whole market.

So you are specifically and purposefully attacking an area of the market that they have practically 0 interest in? Seems fair.

Originally Posted by Vox View Post
Ad hominem attacks wont persuade me at all, I can only assume your using this because you either want to show off or just don't like me, either way keep it less personal.

Was merely outlining your incredible bias that has blinded you.




Originally Posted by Vox View Post
All right, I'm surprised you responded to the challenge but I'll bite, before I do however remember I'm not asking you to prove a negative in the sense you are alluding to, a quick explanation of the logic here involved:
The way I assume you see it:
I provide evidence mac's are over priced, you say it's inadequate, I ask for evidence mac is not overpriced.
Now, that is a negative, however this can also be stated as:
I provide evidence mac's are over priced compared to Dell, you say it's inadequate, I ask for evidence that dells (or any other major PC manufacturer of your choice) are over priced compared to macs. In my words: "...if you believe a Mac Pro will beat a competitors offer, please demonstrate this..."
It's not the same as saying; 'prove the non existence of x', it's just show that 'y>x' not 'x>y'.

"Macs suck"
"No they are decent in areas they care about"
"Prove they don't suck"
"Uh, you are the one making the claim so of course you should be the one to prove it"
...


Originally Posted by Vox View Post
Onto the actual argument: (I'll be using the dell/apple UK stores so expect prices in GBP.) (Also, you didn't really analyse this, so I'll do it for you.)

(NOTE:
I can't find the M15x with the quoted GPU, so I've re run the whole thing based on what I found on Dell's website, the options where a .5GB and a 1.5GB, and you said that maxing it out would be worse so I went for the 1,5GB)

Price:
We'll start with price and see if it's justified:
£2,188.99 compared to £2,453.99 is a difference of £265, so what are the hardware differences?

Screen:
First, you'd think they are both simply 15" notebooks, right? Well, Apple have different screen resolution sizes, the Dell by default has 1600x900, while apple by default uses a 1440x900 screen, they offer a 1680x1050 for £80, or £120 with antiglare, they are both LED backlit, so good screens, we'll say this is a £65 difference, since the ratio from 1600x900:1680x1050 multiplied by 80 is around 65. £200 left.

CPU:
Mobile CPU's are one thing I don't know, so I'll be leaning on review websites largely for this, first the mac book pro uses an intel core i7 2635QM, and this is a current generation processor, by all accounts this is better than the 840QM the Dell uses, however the price difference is the other way around, that is to say, the Alienware M15x uses an older more expensive CPU, probably because it was designed a while ago iirc. Based on cinebench the difference from the Macell is 3696:3426 (single), or 13504:9316 (multi), which is around 35% better (averaged), I can't reasonably estimate the cost of this, so for now, we will say the mac is £200 cheaper and 35% better.

GPU:
Now, to avoid being mean, I'll assume you either just don't care about GPU's or didn't notice the difference here. A 1GB dedicated GPU is not comparable to intels integrated sandybridge GPU's which at best compare to a passive GPU such as the 5450, I'm actually reviewing this with a 1.5GB GTX 460M, even brining up spec tables doesn't demonstrate how wide the gap is here, but simply put what this means is Dell values this component difference at £200, (and this more than makes up for that %35 difference, this makes the mac much less desirable in comparison).

Summary
They are different classes of mobile computers, one is a gaming PC (the Dell) and one is a media PC (the mac), the 460M costs more than the price difference between them, and makes up for the performance difference of the CPU's, considering the Mac used an integrated GPU this is eventually a whole components difference, the Mac is basically one component short, so no wonder it's cheaper. Oh and on a last note if your defence is "GPU doesn't matter" then I know I'm right about this ;P. I'd consider them both well priced decent notebooks, this is certainly a tighter competition than the desktop market, but I'd say Dell won despite your sarcastic suggestion otherwise.


(This will be my last response on line of argument, so you can consider this a closing argument, feel free to make one your self.)

So... The mac has a better price, screen, CPU, and the GPU is arguably better (since you compared an i5, and obviously the i7 is better (THOUGHT I WOULDNT SEE THAT DID YOU?)).

So with the Mac being cheaper and more powerful, you conclude that the Dell is better?

If you choose to ignore logic you can conclude anything \o/
You misstook what I said, the GPU is worse, by any comparison, I didn't compare an i5.

In rank the GMA used in the sandybridge CPU's the '3000' unit is 156, while the 460m is 25.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-...ist.844.0.html

Understand I'm not arguing here, this is fact at this point, seriously, do your research.
What really makes me laugh is that a couple of people at my school were talking about osx being better than windows saying "Microsoft works" GOD I CANT STAND MAC fags. My computer that I'm using, i've had for around 7 years. No blue screen. I do everything with this computer. I can't get over macs commercials either. Look at the two. Say your a major buisness owner. Who would you higher?
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Long live VorteX in memory
i'd make a custom rig, and shove it down a G5 case

but since thats a little frivolous, i'd stick in an SGI workstation case

basically most of what your paying apple is the design. designer fees don't come cheap.

reason why people who buy apple products care about two things: that it work and it look good doing it.
-----
also, intel hackintosh anybody?
Last edited by avwave; Apr 14, 2011 at 12:32 PM. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...tem=34-220-996 vs http://store.apple.com/us/configure/...co=MjEyOTY5MDM

For 800$ less you get a faster hard drive and much better screen resolution.

non-apple laptop $1,049.99



apple laptop $1,799.00



You're obviously biased too, Gorman.
Last edited by isaac; Apr 16, 2011 at 04:51 AM.
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I just dislike fanboys, that's all.

We can find specific examples to prove either way every day of the year. Everyone needs to just accept that Apple has a place, as does everything.


Also, http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/Prod...tReactorX.aspx enjoy.
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