Ranking
smh hi ele. i can see you're still doing fine. How's the music thing going?

also, 5 years ago staff was.... odd. Not a highpoint in the history things tbh.

Personally, I feel that if you sat the whole range of each staff group side by side (Help Squad excluded since there is no comparison from said rewind) i'd think 99% of people would see an obvious improvement.
(was part of both ok i have more than just a fleeting idea/opinion to base this off of)

also unicorn is chill what's the thing against him here smh
Music's going good. I may have (ahem) accidentally deleted you from Facebook during the last biff - My bad.

Wrt 5 years ago, the comparison SkulFuk made was in relation to the communication between devs and upper staff. I reckon you're right that staff today are less (for lack of a better word) 'nuts' than the ones in the past. Over time, I suppose a code of decorum has somewhat developed in response to the actions of a certain few nutjobs. Staff are much more accountable than they were, and there's even a board for people to vent their staff complaints publicly (even if, at times, this board is only for show). There's a different expectation on staff than there used to be.

All that said, I reckon we'd both agree that Skul's concern about the lack of communication from Hampa is valid. Tbh, I think if Hampa were more invested in this community he'd be able to make better and bolder decisions with respect to sustaining and growing TB. What are your thoughts about Hampa's lack of involvement with this community? You have more exact information about this, so what do you reckon? This question isn't just for Icky - Would any other admin/admin+, past or present, care to comment on this topic? Are we happy about the creator of this game and his actions (or lack thereof)?
Last edited by notEle; Jun 6, 2018 at 04:07 PM.
But we do have communication between us and devs. We have known about every major change in the releases ever since, discord got around to us. We even playtested the newest update. Skul is not around on the discord and that's most likely why he feels like we are in the dark about it.
h
From all this, past staff and even present just stained the staff name, if it was a perfect system where everyone is treated like an actual person instead, this wouldn't be brought up every so often,

I do agree a lot with @notele, I couldn't put my thoughts into words but what was said seems pretty spot on, there's obviously power abuse, you can't even argue or having an opposing conversation to a staff member on a human level, they pull the "i'm in power so I'm ending this argument and if you don't comply you're being punished" route, it's perhaps the only reason I don't even try involving myself with most staff unless I really need the help, not to say I haven't met any cool staff. Their view goes, you can barely change it.

There really needs to be a change though, I don't have the answers on how, and of course a lot of players are also toxic in the toribash community so perhaps in the eyes of someone with staff privileges, you don't know how to really react to someone without thinking they may be toxic or a decent person, I will admit, staff aren't as toxic as before, but there's always a new crowd of players so being toxic either way is bad.
|Evil|
I don't exist
Originally Posted by duck View Post
Skul is not around on the discord and that's most likely why he feels like we are in the dark about it.

Discord is one means of communicating, not the only one.

Need a GM? Tell user they're all on Discord. User isn't impressed.
Different user asks me for info on TB Next, I tell them images are being passed around on Discord. That also doesn't seem to please them.
So on so forth.

Sure things may have improved in the past couple of months, and the recent releases even get a news thread with proper info.

Yet I'm getting complained at by users over poor dev transparency. Why? Because it's all on Discord. Hell I'm not even a developer here and I get the finger pointed at me because the info isn't available without using a 3rd party program.
Same applies when they want to get hold of someone.

Personally, I agree with them.

TB Next images from Discord posted in it's thread by users - take a minute to let that sink in. USERS.
Of course there's no context info to go along with them, but hey, it's better than nothing right?

At least someone put in the effort, shame it had to be the community yet again. I shouldn't have to be pointing out this shit.

<Erf> SkulFuk: gf just made a toilet sniffing joke at me
<Erf> i think
<Erf> i think i hate you
Are we happy about the creator of this game and his actions (or lack thereof)?

Hampa is gamedev. He doesn't have to supervise the actions of players playing "community games". Moreover, ninjas are here for outstanding situations, not for regular stuff. That's their work.

You already have admins to handle situations if staffs are acting wrong.

If the point is about red guys being out of your expectations you can always complain
in the correct board for it.

All statements about "show" can be avoided if you state your opinion properly. This board is monitored 24/7 by higher-ups. I personally seen much cases of staffs being punished hard.

As a part of almost every staff positions 5 years ago, I can clearly say, that power abusing is not a deal nowadays. For ex: ESes can't even op you on not your server, while everybody left and so on.

Toxic language can only be caused by stupid behaviour of user.

Can't get justice? Use support email.

In Toribash you can talk to admins or even gamedevs by clicking one button, and they will respond to you in a day. In other online gaming communities to catch guy with powers is hard option. Not talking that people are not busy here, but somehow with that small community we know each other so well, that it makes an illusion we can just pm Hampa saying "Hi help pls". That's not how it works.

Usually it should be like:
"Hello, dear blah blah, we have read your complaint and blah blah"

But as what I can see now you guys are transforming such conversations as: "omg they act like they are better than us."

About that "sucking NOgang", well, people take players to staff by their behaviour. If person is known as a good guy, why not to try him as an admin/orwhatever. I bet nobody will be accepted if he applies for a smod or something w/o any background. It's not about hanging with higher-ups, it's more about a person. And, talking about sucking etc, I don't think that it can give you colored name. I tried.

Since this thread became an opinion thing, I'd say that staff is improved a lot.

I shouldn't have scammed, but how are you going to tell me a duel isn't valid and close my report but turn around and ban me for the same exact thing?

Trying to use "non-supported USD scams" exploit =/= regular USD scam.
Yeah, the first guy had to be punished, but it's all up to admin decision, since it's not supported and on your own risk.
The other situation is you, who clearly knew that it's not bannable, and tried to avoid punishment, by using that precedent.
Last edited by Tarlan; Jun 7, 2018 at 01:40 AM.
Hosted >3000 events b4 you even was born.
MY SUPER ART SHOP IS OPEN AGAIN
Originally Posted by Tarlan View Post
Hampa is gamedev. He doesn't have to supervise the actions of players playing "community games". Moreover, ninjas are here for outstanding situations, not for regular stuff. That's their work.

That's the point I'm making. We know Hampa is the gamedev, we know he doesn't 'supervise' the community. My point is that he should be more involved. If he had more of a finger on the pulse of the community, then perhaps things (e.g. the activity of this community) would be in a better position than they are now.

Originally Posted by Tarlan View Post
You already have admins to handle situations if staffs are acting wrong.

If the point is about red guys being out of your expectations you can always complain
in the correct board for it.

All statements about "show" can be avoided if you state your opinion properly. This board is monitored 24/7 by higher-ups.

If you read my earlier post you would've picked up on this but...

I state my opinions properly. Everyone can usually understand what I'm saying and where I'm coming from. You say you can always complain in the complaints board but no, I can't. My access to that board (and the rest of Help) has literally been removed. This is because an admin+ has a grudge with me. As I said earlier, there is no holding admin+ to account for things, because they run things in hampa's perpetual community absence.

Originally Posted by Tarlan View Post
About that "sucking NOgang", well, people take players to staff by their behaviour. If person is known as a good guy, why not to try him as an admin/orwhatever. I bet nobody will be accepted if he applies for a smod or something w/o any background. It's not about hanging with higher-ups, it's more about a person. And, talking about sucking etc, I don't think that it can give you colored name. I tried.

You clearly didn't suck them well enough. I see the point your making but I just think you're flat-out wrong. It's all about schmoozing the right people. You wanna be smod? Make friends with other smods, make friends with the admins. Join whatever IRC/discord/chat server that some of these people frequent and stay there. Stay quiet (don't cause any fuss) when appropriate, type 'lol' when appropriate. Obviously, if you're the dullest tool in the shed then you won't get smod regardless of how much schmoozing you do. But if you're even half-way competent, you can reasonably expect to gain the position you want if you've schmoozed successfully. If you've ingratiated yourself, you will get what you want.
Last edited by notEle; Jun 7, 2018 at 07:25 AM.
Originally Posted by SkulFuk View Post
Discord is one means of communicating, not the only one.

Need a GM? Tell user they're all on Discord. User isn't impressed.
Different user asks me for info on TB Next, I tell them images are being passed around on Discord. That also doesn't seem to please them.
So on so forth.

Sure things may have improved in the past couple of months, and the recent releases even get a news thread with proper info.

Yet I'm getting complained at by users over poor dev transparency. Why? Because it's all on Discord. Hell I'm not even a developer here and I get the finger pointed at me because the info isn't available without using a 3rd party program.
Same applies when they want to get hold of someone.

Personally, I agree with them.

TB Next images from Discord posted in it's thread by users - take a minute to let that sink in. USERS.
Of course there's no context info to go along with them, but hey, it's better than nothing right?

At least someone put in the effort, shame it had to be the community yet again. I shouldn't have to be pointing out this shit.

In what way is it bad that we have an easy to access (remember, discord is browser too) chat service where you can ping a staff member and they will get on whatever you needed? Isn't it the same as it was with irc?

Also, the TBN images are, as of right now, hampa dicking around with the most barebones build of the game, in VR. It's meant to be just a teaser, nothing substantial
h
Originally Posted by Wattr View Post
I'm pretty sure I found it on YouTube when it was all the rage, and all the big names were playing it, with Markiplier probably being the biggest. There were also the YouTubers who had a series of these Toribash LPs going, such as NerdCubed and ZeRoyalViking.

So... what happened?

What happened is that Toribash is now a game that got initially released 12 years ago in general and 4 years ago on Steam in particular - and mainstream Youtubers mostly make videos on stuff that just got recently released to stay trendy. How many of them do you see playing old games?
That's just a natural way of how YouTube works, if Toribash got released just today then you'd see all those videos from 2014 popping up in the coming weeks/months.

Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
I think the lack of advertising is one of the main reasons toribash is dying.
I mean come on, the game didn't get a trailer since 4.8 and the main website page contain the trailer of TB 3.7.dfuq?
I mean, they could just make a video comp for a new TB trailer or hire a pro vfx artist to do it. A little steam advertisement wouldn't hurt as well.

To put it simply. Nabi should take some responsibility

As Smaguris said earlier in this thread, there's not much use in advertising when player retention is as low as it is in Toribash. We're working on making the game more beginner-friendly but that's going to take time - and I'm not even sure we can reach a point when retention is similar to that of bigger games with more "ordinary" gameplay.
I agree that www.toribash.com is outdated though, that one is getting remade in future.

Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
You couldn't put it any better, staff do ruin the fun as time goes on, seeing rules being implemented, or rule changes that made the forums "fun" is just this thing where you can't really express anything, you have to make your own art boards on discord or clan threads and that won't even guarantee exposure or real basic cnc, no one really has the time to make a basic criticism a piece of art cause public forum is just annoying.

I assure you that staff aren't adding new rules just for the sake of "ruining your fun". All the rules we have are a result of 12 years of experience of working with this community - and they're here to assure everyone stays happy and gets best experience from using forums. There were some overly-moderated boards in past (e.g. Art board as you mentioned) but that's not an issue anymore. Also the official discord is like super relaxed - the only thing we're asking from you is to be nice to others, not to post NSFW stuff there and keep offtopic chat away from #support. Unless you want to showcase your porn / hentai drawings you should be alright to do it (and if you do, Toribash-related chats are probably not the best place to do it in).

Also seeing these new features without public polls and whatnot, I personally don't like random things being added without further discussion with the public.

There are things that, obviously, aren't going to be discussed with the community for a lot of reasons. While you may think that you know what's best for the game without ever developing games / administrating game community, there's a pretty huge chance that you are in fact wrong.
Lots of new additions to the game have also been taken from Suggestions & Ideas board, so if you want to have something added / modified in Toribash, please post there and we'll be able to discuss it.


Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
rules are good but too many just pushes everyone away, wibbles 2.0 was pretty good for the most part when it was free, I personally didn't see anything bad other than the occasional goatse, that was easily fixed with a ban or just a thread deletion though, wibbles is meant to be cancer for the most part, and it was fun cause it lacked rules, it was one of the only places where you can say anything without having some staff breathing down your neck and threatening you with infractions. If I remember, wibbles was extremely active, until a paywall was added, many didn't like it but those that made the decision didn't really show remorse. I still don't even use wibbles cause I'm against that decision.

Wibbles was a shithole and it shouldn't have been reinstated in the first place. Current wibbles is slightly better because regular users aren't exposed to thoughtless (and often provocative) posts; yet people who want to spam got a place where they can spam at a hilariously cheap price (you literally just need to log in for 6 days straight to be able to buy yourself a wibbles subscription).

Also this gets brought up a lot, but many players have issues with staff, shouldn't that mean anything?
Should it be adressed?
I try to give the benefit of the doubt but some staff tend to get some sort of complex,
Even with community changes/additions/decisions there doesn't seem to be much staff to general population communication, I know there's the suggestions and ideas board, most of those are player ideas, would be really insightful to know what's being worked on and if it should be continued since what really makes the forums live is the players itself, when nothing is addressed or acknowledged that just seems to cause people to withdraw from posting.

You know, it's pretty hard to address something that even users who complain can't describe.
"Staff aren't providing us best experience and something is wrong about the way they do their job so please address that". Like okay, can you tell what exactly is wrong with the team we have today? Are there administrators who do their job poorly? Smods who abuse their powers and ban random people? Do ES not host enough events? Give us names and examples, something we can actually work with and fixed. I don't remember any single user that got banned for calling out specific staff members for doing shit. Just please don't bring up examples of "I did a shady thing trying to abuse a loophole in rules and didn't get proper support".
inb4 Ele brings up the fact that he can't post here and it's unjust (spoiler: it really isn't when you consider how many times he was warned and how much of a nuisance he was to staff in general).

Originally Posted by SkulFuk View Post
The community/game staff have practically nothing to do with what ends up in the game, when we do it's after a lot of pushing over a long period.
The same applies to knowing what's going on with development, the majority of the time we're in the dark just like users until a new version lands. The rare time we do find out something is happening is because it's mentioned in passing, or we spot something new appear.

This is very wrong. With all due respect, the fact that you stay away from all the other staff by refusing to join Discord just keeps you in the dark. Literally whole staff team (including minor groups like ES/HS/MS) were aware of all the changes that happened within last 4-5 months weeks if not months prior to them becoming public. They playtest new game builds before public betas are released, they get to see/test new forum features before regular users receive access to them and so on.

Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
From all this, past staff and even present just stained the staff name, if it was a perfect system where everyone is treated like an actual person instead, this wouldn't be brought up every so often.

It's like we're thinking about two completely different gaming communities. Toribash is one of the few games where you can contact an administrator or an actual game developer in a public discord and chat with them. Yes we may not respond from time to time (I usually don't respond while I'm working on code and later I frequently just forget to respond) - but this doesn't mean that we treat users as some numbers in statistics. Yes, you shouldn't expect a friendly welcome when you're a user with 5 pages of infractions and several bans, all received within the few last months. Yes, if you're known for causing issues to staff you will receive more harsh punishment for breaking rules again. This isn't the case for a regular user who stays out of trouble though - and I don't remember it ever being one.

I do agree a lot with @notele, I couldn't put my thoughts into words but what was said seems pretty spot on, there's obviously power abuse, you can't even argue or having an opposing conversation to a staff member on a human level, they pull the "i'm in power so I'm ending this argument and if you don't comply you're being punished" route, it's perhaps the only reason I don't even try involving myself with most staff unless I really need the help, not to say I haven't met any cool staff. Their view goes, you can barely change it.

You can argue with anyone - you just don't need to be an asshole about it. Ele got his access killed because he kept shitposting in Staff Complaints and Off-Topic after being told to stop numerous times in past. Just keep in mind that arguing usually involves finding compromise between two opposing opinions - it isn't just you pitching an idea that's different from what staff think and staff instantly agreeing to that. If you can't defend your opinion with proper points and just keep reiterating same exact thing after being told that it isn't possible to be done / is just wrong - well yeah, there will be a point where we'd go "fuck it" and just stop caring about whatever you're going to say next.


Originally Posted by SkulFuk View Post
Discord is one means of communicating, not the only one.

Need a GM? Tell user they're all on Discord. User isn't impressed.
Different user asks me for info on TB Next, I tell them images are being passed around on Discord. That also doesn't seem to please them.
So on so forth.

Discord is pretty much a standard way of communicating for any gamer in 2018.
Obviously it isn't the only way of communication between staff and playerbase - that's the reason why we still have forums. And hey there's also ingame chat.
And please don't tell me there's more people today who (at least) know what IRC is than people who use Discord. That just isn't true, no matter how much you may dislike Discord for whatever reason there is.


Yet I'm getting complained at by users over poor dev transparency. Why? Because it's all on Discord. Hell I'm not even a developer here and I get the finger pointed at me because the info isn't available without using a 3rd party program.
Same applies when they want to get hold of someone.

Personally, I agree with them.

TB Next images from Discord posted in it's thread by users - take a minute to let that sink in. USERS.
Of course there's no context info to go along with them, but hey, it's better than nothing right?

At least someone put in the effort, shame it had to be the community yet again. I shouldn't have to be pointing out this shit.

There is a reason why none of TBN gifs get posted by staff / hampa himself - they are not an actual depiction of what's going to be in the game. TBN isn't even in its alpha state yet, anything you might have seen was hampa or me goofing around with physics / VR / game engine. Once there are things that hampa wants to show because he's dead sure it's going to be in the final release - he will do that. But for now there are only images / gifs to tease the general outline of the coming game - and those are unlikely to get posted anywhere officially because they're not yet worth receiving publicity.
Lets see if I can keep this short & civil.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
This is very wrong. With all due respect, the fact that you stay away from all the other staff by refusing to join Discord just keeps you in the dark. Literally whole staff team (including minor groups like ES/HS/MS) were aware of all the changes that happened within last 4-5 months weeks if not months prior to them becoming public. They playtest new game builds before public betas are released, they get to see/test new forum features before regular users receive access to them and so on.

Reminder - 2nd post did state that things have improved in that regard over the past couple of months.
Keep in mind that a couple of months isn't a long time in comparison to how things were leading up to it.

Regarding the Discord thing - I'll address that later.

Originally Posted by sir View Post
Discord is pretty much a standard way of communicating for any gamer in 2018.
Obviously it isn't the only way of communication between staff and playerbase - that's the reason why we still have forums. And hey there's also ingame chat.
And please don't tell me there's more people today who (at least) know what IRC is than people who use Discord. That just isn't true, no matter how much you may dislike Discord for whatever reason there is.

I never implied anyone would think of IRC instead of Discord these days, I never mentioned IRC at all. I merely stated that it's one means of communicating, and that I have came across more than a handful of people that weren't pleased when they were told they should use Discord to get hold of people.

[As a minor side note - There still users that appear on IRC for help, I assume they are using older clients or have webchat bookmarks since none were on stand alone IRC clients.]

Originally Posted by sir View Post
There is a reason why none of TBN gifs get posted by staff / hampa himself - they are not an actual depiction of what's going to be in the game. TBN isn't even in its alpha state yet, anything you might have seen was hampa or me goofing around with physics / VR / game engine. Once there are things that hampa wants to show because he's dead sure it's going to be in the final release - he will do that. But for now there are only images / gifs to tease the general outline of the coming game - and those are unlikely to get posted anywhere officially because they're not yet worth receiving publicity.

I'm aware of what the images are, but users aren't. Someone says they saw pictures of it, someone else looks for them... Chinese Whispers bud, what starts as one thing rapidly spirals into something else after it's been passed on a few times.

OMG TB NEXT HAS VR TEXTURE PAINTING INGAME CONFIRMED KJBSADIsadibfsadibagfs

If they'd been put up by staff with an explanation that they're WIP/fucking around etc then it'd kill two birds with one stone. Users get to see that things are progressing, feed back happens, good times all around.

I get that avoiding hype over stuff that may or may not happen is a thing these days, but it's not really something we've ever really had a problem with here prior.
You've been around long enough to remember when they'd stick up a random screen shot of something that'd probably get ditched, at most people asked why it didn't happen, when told why they were content with knowing the reason.
Maybe I'd get brought up later on, someone would tell them why I never happened, it then becomes a suggestion.

Transparency aint a bad thing when it comes to small communities, it's certainly better than leaving them in the dark.
But as I already said, things have improved in that regard recently.

----

K so me + Discord; as much as I dislike having to repeat myself - I said why I wouldn't be on it before it was set up lol

I also told you all that I do have a Discord account, and that it was (and still is) running on this machine.
And the reason it's there is for work purposes, and for what should be obvious reasons it needs kept separate from other things.

Multiple instances are a good way to make a machine fall over, and the web version has some comical memory leak issues if it's left running long enough.
I could leave a 2nd machine running for it, but electricity aint free.

K I'm done repeating myself over that. Guess everyone just forgot I had already explained myself prior to it.

Although yes, I dislike Discord. Wrapped HTML apps are pretty cancerous.

<Erf> SkulFuk: gf just made a toilet sniffing joke at me
<Erf> i think
<Erf> i think i hate you