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Old Jun 30, 2018   #1
Lmorti
 
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AI in toribash
I'm really interested in the possibilities of creating a machine learning program for toribash

but toribash is such a complex game with so many hidden variables with that just comes natural to a human that a computer would have to convert into data and analyse that I'm unsure it could be done to the point at which the program could put up a reasonable fight to even an average (active) player.

the only way I could foresee it being able to be made at this point is if the AI could run all possible movements by it's opponent and itself and evaluate which would give the highest number of "winning" outcomes, still i don't know how you could define a winning frame without using variables that could potentially backfire.

but if it was possible running matches of AI vs AI to train it would hopefully create the hypothetical "best player" until it encounters a strategy it hasn't met, which it will then learn and once again regain it's title

Anyones thoughts on whether or not AI is possible within toribash or even toribash next would be much appreciated thanks
h
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Old Jun 30, 2018   #2
Hours
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i remember back when i used to play toribash there was an ai mod or script or whatever which made uke "fight". it was mostly random movements, but developing it and creating a self learning bot definently seems possible to me. though, the furthest i've gotten into programming is creating games (ping pong) in html code, so don't take anything i say for granted.
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Old Jun 30, 2018   #3
Lmorti
 
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any input is appreciated and while I agree that making a self-learning AI is possible I'm unsure on whether or not a competitive self-learning AI is possible given the number of possible outcomes in each frame of the match and the unpredictability of the movements of the opponent at certain times.
I just feel like if an AI were to be working and learning it would take a large amount of teaching to get it to the level of a beginner.
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Old Jun 30, 2018   #4
torilose
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Of course a self learning AI is possible. Do you know dota 2? They have a team of AI´s playing vs humans and beating them. I am not talking about the default AI´s but self taught AI. https://www.pcgamer.com/openais-dota...0&ns_fee=0 In case you want to read about it.
"I just feel like if an AI were to be working and learning it would take a large amount of teaching to get it to the level of a beginner. "
Indeed but thats why you have computers. Example of a "large amount of teaching": >>The OpenAI Five plays 180 years worth of games against itself every day.
Of course thats takes immense amounts of processing power. You wont be able to do that with your pc. But then again toribash is not even close to being as complex as Dota2.
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Last edited by torilose; Jun 30, 2018 at 09:21 PM..
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Old Jun 30, 2018   #5
Arakata
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The AI must adapt it's movements based on it's opponent movements. There are a lot of possibilities, and even more if you consider that AI (or active player) movements are constantly affected by it's opponent movements. One simple touch can ruin what the AI had planned. I think it is possible, but it would take years of teaching due to the amount of possible moves + how even little touches will affect the balance, velocity, etc of the AI.

If Toribash brings up an AI and it learn 90% of the possible situations, it would be an awesome challenge. "Who's gonna beat it?".

Conclusion: possible, but would take a huge amount time.
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Old Jul 1, 2018   #6
Lmorti
 
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alright I was thinking of it from too much of a narrow perspective, I do believe it's possible, but I'm wondering how hard it would be and would it be possible for someone or some group to do so without the budget or number of workers of OpenAI or DeepMind. While I do believe AI could happen I don't think it will happen unless TB Next really gains some traction with it's release.
Originally Posted by torilose View Post
But then again toribash is not even close to being as complex as Dota2.

While there Dota is much more complex than toribash all it takes is one key variable that can't be accurately translated into a format which could be optimised, I doubt there is anything in toribash which can't be graphed/optimisted from a human's perspective.
A computer's perspective is much more analytic like distance from the ground in order to not dq, you know that a elbow closer to the ground is much less important than a glute.
however some strats for winning like lifting and tripoding rely on being close to the ground.
Im probably over thinking the amount of work the programmer would have to do in order to get a working machine learning program.
h

Last edited by Lmorti; Jul 1, 2018 at 09:15 PM..
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Old Jul 2, 2018   #7
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I think toribash works more like chess or go from a computers perpective...and there is a ai that learned the game of go and beat world champion.
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Old Jul 2, 2018   #8
>Smaguris
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Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
I think toribash works more like chess or go from a computers perpective...and there is a ai that learned the game of go and beat world champion.

Those really have nothing in common with toribash. Go and chess are both turn-based games, which for AI is child's play. Something like Toribash though is so much more complex because it involves predictability, which is one of the hardest factors to conquer for AI.

Is self learning AI in Toribash possible? Yeah, most definitely just like any other game, but it would require resources that are way out of reach for Toribash, which is why it's practically next to impossible.
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Old Jul 2, 2018   #9
torilose
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Originally Posted by Smaguris View Post
Those really have nothing in common with toribash. Go and chess are both turn-based games, which for AI is child's play. Something like Toribash though is so much more complex because it involves predictability, which is one of the hardest factors to conquer for AI.

Is self learning AI in Toribash possible? Yeah, most definitely just like any other game, but it would require resources that are way out of reach for Toribash, which is why it's practically next to impossible.

Not true. There are people developing self learning AI´s on their own. There is a guy on youtube for example who developed one for GTA 5 wich is a very complex game. The AI learned to drive.
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Old Jul 2, 2018   #10
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Vox had a WIP script that sorta did it years ago (it controlled both toris), but it took days of leaving the game running before it would figure out staying upright let alone managing to fight properly.

Either way it was interesting to watch them slowly improve. The file it created did get horrifically big though since it stored everything that happened through thousands of matches.

No idea if anyone still has a copy of it handy though, it's from 2011/12 and was only passed around the staff on IRC.

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