Well since the TW board is kind of inactive I felt like starting some senseless Debate ;3

OLDFAEGZ vs NUFAEGZ :

Some of you guys still talk about Kamiko, Odlov, or other players I've never heard of, or played with. Some still say "Ahhhhhhh tings wur so much moar great n the ol' time dur" while us newfagz see the smuthness and skillz the brushu generation's getting.

The newcomers get the hang of comebacks and impro way faster than before I think. But some old timers keep thinking the gold time of wushu was back to wushu.tbm or wushufixed.tbm because (quote) "Coming back with broken joints required much more skillz than it does now". To this I say lol.
I had numerous comeback with broken joints even in brushu, if you guys can't break each others in brushu it only means you hit like sissies ! ;o

Oldfaegz ! You're wrong !
I'll stand corrected only when I'm being asswhooped by some half dead wushu legend... if that ever happens.

ARGUE !

(Reader's advice : do not take this post too seriously)

I would say that for me, it's just a matter of nostalgia from what I can tell. Because nobody knew how to wushu with maximum efficiency except those greats, there was little propagation of that knowledge and as a result, matches were much more onesided. There was no wushu tut in the old days. I think that people look back on guys like odlov with heavy bias, not realizing that if he faced someone like you, deprav, even in his prime it would be a very fair fight. If anything the general skill level in the mod has risen, and that means it is more difficult to streak constantly. I do not question that they were great players, only that they are better than the new generation who have the benefit of starting with more knowledge available than they had.

Having played both: I will tell you deprav, and I'm sorry don't talk offense- it's nowhere near close.

When I mention Wushu ToriLegends, I don't mention players that played wushu 4 years ago. I mention Wushu players that were BETTER than us.

Let me expand on that idea for a minute:

SlipAnc played Wushu in the golden years of it's existence as one of the most well known members in one of the most well known wushu clans out there: HUNG. SlipAnc was a great player for wushu.tbm/wushufixed.tbm. He was NOT a Torilegend for skill. He was good for that.

Odlov played Wushu in the golden years of it's existence and acted as something below leadership for the best Wushu clan, Alpha. He IS and WAS an icon because his skills extended far beyond the current competition. Did he do just fine in Wushu.tbm? Yeah totally. But it's hard to make the argument that it was all openers when he would noobclap 40% of games. His comebacks were faster, his decision making was smarter, his instincts were better, his prediction was top notch. He WAS better than anyone here.

Sahee is the grey area. I think of him out of nostalgia as a ToriGod of wushu, but he was partially the making of the old wushu. He's borderline though because he typically preferred wushu with 650 ED.



But I digress:

as an ENTIRE community: new school wushu players are better. More of you can comeback effectively, more of you can improv effectively, more of you have adapted more successfully.

But. In terms of the best. KamiKo, Odlov, and possibly Sahee: are better than myself, the current alpha roster, and begotten. And I don't see it being too close. Were trying our best to step up our game, but we don't streak 12 games like EVERY time we come up to bat against OTHER GOOD players. As much as I'd love to say were on the same level, were just not. At least not yet.

I have to say, hax, in wushu.tbm it is entirely possible to get dismemberments with just a fast aggressive comeback and a well placed hard joint, like an elbow. For that reason, I think that comparing wushu.tbm/wushufixed and brushu is difficult, because in brushu to frac or dm you have to create much more velocity on momentum once the aggressive comeback is made. I think that because of that, brushu/wushu3 don't force you to play nearly as defensively, as absorbing a hit is much more feasible. That is probably what made guys like odlov and kamiko into such GREAT players...they had to learn to defend or dodge, or what we might consider a weak hit in brushu could mean death. Also, having had this revelation, I will be training more in wushu.tbm now ;p as to what this means for the debate here...I would say that the oldschoolers were better in different ways. in causing precisely placed damage and defending, yes superior. As far as speed and fluidity, and therefore raw power, I am not so sure, I might give the edge to the best of the newschoolers. Been thinking about this a lot during my vacation. This analysis, though, does put the oldschooler on top. Blocking so efficiently and attacking, even if the attack is weaker than one's opponent, still means the oldschoolers would win in points.

I suppose it's alright since you called this debate "senseless", because it pretty much is. No matter what, everything is just based on opinion with "who's the best" threads. Of course, feel free to state your opinions as the thread asks, but like deprav said, just don't take it too seriously. My point is just, there is absolutely no point in trying to prove one another wrong here.

No worries, master Snudge, I am just stimulating my mind with some healthy thought and debate. I'm sure we are all just enjoying some intellectual exercise

we will see about newfags in 0,5 - 1 year. i guess seeds from putting wushu tutorial on every single wushu room will have it effect.

Meh, you know my opinion depr, we had this discussion with thrandir and you at wushu8, not willing to write it down again.

I think i'm a little exception between "half-oldfag" (even if in 2012 i can be considered and "old-school" for me real old school will be for ever who were before me).
I think it's possible to (more or less) compare players of today with players of yesterday (of course considering only personal opinions). But when you do this, you have to consider like a "difficulty multiplier" for players of today: i think now in wushu there is much lesser luck involved (and this make everything harder) and much more strong players.
Honestly when these old-players were playing the amount of streak depended by the quality of the openers and also by the luck (yes because an opener could pawn one, but lose with another one that had a different moviment, and this may be called luck, since when you do your openers you can't know which moviment your opponent will do), i can say it without risk to wrong, since i did too my longest streaks in wushu thanks to my old openers.
You say "But Odlov used only noob clap in the last period". The noob clap in the first turn (and then contracting 1 hip and contracting that knee in the second turn) is simply an epic defence in a period where, thanks to openers, everyone basically threw himself against the opponent. That was not the Odlov's best period imo, he was just waiting for you, and if you didn't do nothing, so nothing would have happened for most of the match (that was also too short imo. From one side is true that with lesser time you had to be much more fast in cb, but it also drastically reduced what for me is the essence of this mod: planification/tattic)..i really hated that style, it was very lame imo.
Plus i will never agree that wushu.tbm involve more skills..the only thing that involve more, is the luck: wushu.tbm, imo, today is just a lol mod..

Btw even said this, for me the greatest is still Kamiko, with his incredibly fast cb from every position, but behind him i can also consider Beg, Madreckless, Snudge, since they play in a period much harder (more skilled people, mods that require lesser luck, no openers at all). I don't know if they are better or not, and i neither care so much to say if for me they are stronger or weaker than Odlov and others. What is important is that for me they are not at a lower level respect them.

About you Dep, one day you'll become really great imo (i love your semi-realistic style), but this mod needs a lot of time (and i mean really a lot)

But well, I am gonna rephrase some things.

I started playing toribash when gold era of wushu was ending. Odlov started to be inactive, Sahee just left, Kamiko was playing, but it was end, a lot of other great players started to leave. I always wanted to be as KamiKo, because I saw him in "How we do it in Poland" video- he was epic, then someone said me he is wushu player, so I started playing it too. I still feel proud due to a fact I was one of the "youngest" players with "lei si le" achiev (3rd dan with 6months of playing), and never stopped practice wushu (well, excluding inactivity months xdd). I remember all those epic wushu players, but mostly from replays- in game I saw them just a few times (Sahee- once or twice, KamiKo- a few times, Odlov- also a few times), but I know their style well enough (really, I saw shitloads of replays- You would be surprised, how many...) to know, that they were WAY better than players nowadays. And- coming to conclusion- they were playing wushu. Brushu is not wushu, and it was main topic of discussion.

Don't get me wrong. I find brushu as epic mod, and totally agree that it should be mod used at official servers etc (especially at it was made by Brucia with Odlov assistance- I remember that he was testing it and approved it)- that's why I play it. But when deprav comes and says that "he would make brushu with even more dt and df", I am asking myself- what the hell...? Wushu used to need a lot of skill to manage Your own force. At brushu, You don't need to worry about backfire nor random dm's when moving too fast- brushu needs another kind of skill. It is oriented at points, comebacks and style. And that is why I say that oldfaegs were just better than players nowadays- KamiKo was able to comeback three times in 500frames, his style was epic and he had to care about his and his opponent force, as it could have caused injuries easily. At brushu, You don't need to worry about random fracs, or even fracs in fights- if only You are good at no-grabs mods, blocking most of hits will be easy, and You will have to care just for points. Especially for person with experience at wushufixed- there You had to block AND be aware about dm's and fracs. Just blocking? Hell, damn easy. That is why I feel wushufixed used to need more skill from players, but not much more, as brushu has another advantages- You have to learn how to use bigger power (no need to worry about backfire anymore), make accurate shoots (at wushu it was fine to attack parts of body easy to frac or dm- at brushu winning needs points), block (it is way more important at brushu)... It is another mod. Similar, but it's not destructive wushu anymore. I don't know if it's better or worse- it's another. And luck is less important here- that is why I feel it is better "official" mod than good, old wushu... I'm fine with brushu, but if someone wants to make mod with even more df and dt, I just feel he is not wushuist at all.

If talking about players... I feel that KamiKo was the best. But eh... Odlov, Sahee, Verax, Begotten... They all were/are awesome too. Generally, I don't feel we should rate players. Even a few months ago I would do it, but not anymore- I feel that one of the main wushu pillars is playing with everyone as with equal. And this is why I refused to join this org when long long time ago Snake said I should- just no, I don't want to do it due to all those ratings, inviting players You consider as good enough, tiers etc. I feel it's not wushu spirit...