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Old Aug 17, 2017   #1
jisse
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[Big] My Toribash and Toribash Next wishlist
With Next on the horizon I think it is high time I put my veto in and hope I can make a positive difference for the future of Toribash and Toribash Next.
So here is my list for additions and changes that I think would benefit the game and make Toribash a more financially stable project for Nabi Studios to keep working on.


For the sake of clarity I'm going to break this post down into 3 parts:
Replay - How replays are edited or viewed

Mod - How mods and envs are built

Misc - General changes and additions, technicalities and the new player experience


Also I am going to colorcode my ideas, marking them according to the following:
Green - Changes that would be easy to implement, and things I am surprised and dissappointed an 11 year old game doesn't already have

Black - Mostly suggestions for Toribash Next, things I wouldn't be suprised if the new game may contain

Red - Things I don't expect to ever be added in any of the games, mostly personal preferences and large scale additions, I would be very happy if even one or two of these features turns up in the future



Lets begin with the lighter list
Replay

Custom replay speed - You know how after we load a replay a small counter appears in the bottom left corner of the screen, allowing us to view a replay in slowmotion or superspeed. I want that feature added to the .rpl file itself which would allow us to set a default replay speed when the replay is opened. Would allow for greater cinematic experience and open up many doors to new replay types.

Custom sound effects - There was a slight attempt at this when hitsounds were added - which failed spectacularly. Being able to manually add custom sounds to replays would elevate replaymaking to another level, allowing for stories to be told and fights to become movie scenes. This would be done by allowing players to add their own snippets of sound into the game, like kiai or grab sounds did except controlable. Hopefully through the replaymaking process itself but definitely through .rpl editing.
More on the technicalities of how sound files would be integrated in the Misc section.

Frame skip editing - If you've ever created a selfspar or a long parkour you know how annoying it is having to watch your replay over and over again every time you want to make an edit. Having to watch 1500 frames of replay for every 10 or 20 frames of progress gets dull and leads to the last parts of replays often being lazy, or replays being shorter than you'd want them to be. I suggest having an option that allows you to view the replay from a specific point, say 200 frames before the last edit whenever you press R instead of watching it from the start.

Better first person cam - The current first person cam mode focuses the camera on the opposite players' head. I would be so happy to have a "true" first person mode, where the camera is pointed towards the direction Uke or Tori is actually looking. Imagine being able to view parkour replays from a realistic angle, it would be great!

Better .rpl loading
- I talked about how we can adjust the replay speed after loading a replay, which is a great feature by the way. But for some reason this requires you to LOAD a replay by first opening the game, going through Setup > Replays and then pressing LOAD. I don't know the technicalities behind the differences of LOAD and QUICK LOAD but I assume QUICK LOAD is what goes down when I open a .rpl file through an explorer window or my browser downloads. It would be neat to have an option to LOAD these replays per default.



Moving on to what lies closest to my heart
Mods

Uninteractive objects - Being able to place objects that are purely aesthetic would be great and should already be an option to be honest. Basically you can move through them.

Water - We don't necessarily need to have fluid mechanics in the game, but at least allow us to create water objects like that one script can. Bouyancy would be amazing and allow for a whole new category of mods.

Object textures - Allowing modders to add a low resolution texture to objects would be great and allow for some much better looking mods. Obviously the game would come with a wide array of default textures. Custom textures wouldn't even be a big deal comparitively, but more on how that would work later.

Ctrl + Z - Self explanitory

Better drag control - I played around with the Bethesda creation kit during the summer and one of the most pleasant features was the drag control. Toribash drag control if obviously a huge mess and I've never heard of anyone using the mouse to move objects. The Beth creation kit worked wonders though: instead of dragging an object around on all 3 axis it had customizable hotkeys for whatever axis you would want to drag the object on. I personally used a configuration where dragging an object with the mouse would only move it on the X and Y axis, while holding down Z on the keyboard would allow me to drag the object only on the Z axis.

Light objects - Also pretty self explanitory, being able to mark an object as a light emitter would be great, but this would also require a complete revamp of the Toribash light engine, more on that later.

Particle effects - Allowing us to mark an object as a particle emitter would also be really cool. This could be done similarly to how flames work.

Projectile launchers
- Marking an object as a projectile launcher would work wonders for gun and trap creation. After marking an object as a launcher you would have the options to tweak a number of settings. This includes but may not be limited to: Max ammunition, fire rate, direction of fire(relative or not to the object itself), velocity, and of course the projectile itself. The projectile would be edited as any other object.

Programmable "misc" key - You may ask how a projectile launcher would be triggered. The simplest answer would of course be through the shitty trigger system we currently have. Another option would be through a programmable misc key. You know how we can press V to grab, or C to hold all, why not add one or several programmable buttons that through modding would perform X or Y. Say I create a pistol for a mod and I want to fire it. By binding the projectile launcher object to a hotkey I could fire the gun by pressing the misc key.

More trigger options - Being able to play custom sound effects through the trigger system would be amazing, also being able to spawn objects ingame(think a working vending machine) would be great too. The possibilities are endless.

Explosives - Would be super cool to have explosive objects that create a shockwave and/or particles when triggered. Imagine parkouring through a minefield or tossing actual grenades at eachother.

A visible grid - Every single 3D software I've ever worked with except the Toribash Modmaker has a toggleable grid. Should definitely be in the game already.

Bleed toggle - You know how you automatically start bleeding from your feet when standing on a non-static object creating a permanent splashing sound effect in your parkour replay. Add a toggle to disable this from specific objects.

Polygon editing - The feature I would like to see most out of every single one on this list. Being restricted to working with boxes and spheres honestly SUCKS. Being able to create, save and load custom objects in the Toribash engine would be so amazing I can't even put into words how great it would be. This would probably have to be done in a separate window of the Modmaker, where polygons are asigned a position through the X Y and Z system. This would allow us to create swords, chairs, landscapes, monsters and anything inbetween with only a single object that we could export to other mods, but honestly I am not optimistic this will ever become a reality.

Custom hotkeys - Being able to duplicate, delete and move objects through custom hotkeys would be great, and honestly it should have been added a long time ago.

Custom joint and part creation - I'm talking bodyjoints and bodyparts. Sometimes I just want to play as a three-armed mutant with a working tail. I have heard whispers of this coming for Next, but I personally doubt it.

Infinite click distance - Not being able to click scenery far away while editing is very frustrating zzzzz

Proportionate scaling - Being able to scale Tori and Uke up and down with a slider would be great, also allow us to bind proportionate strenght to this please(the weight of bodyparts is weighed in density for some oddball fucking reason, unlike regular objects which are weighed in mass).



Finally let's take a look at how we can improve Toribash as a game and franchise by altering how the game itself functions, many of these may actually be unrealistic
Misc

Uke AI openers - We have custom openers for Uke in the practice mode, but I think this is kind of dull so let's spice it up a bit. Through simulation-based optimization
Uke could become a killing machine. In short this would work by constantly running simulations of Uke trying random joint states against a stationary Tori. By filtering out simulations where Uke scored low points and optimizing the high scoring ones Uke could over time become a force to be reckoned with. Of course this would require a bunch of computing power and player interaction against Uke would screw over his deadly dance, but by observing what Uke does against a stationary target we might learn some new techniques and I think it would help new players learn and overcome the extraordinary learning curve of Toribash. With that said I also want to address the issue Toribash has always had. It is straight up off-putting for most casual gamers because it is so hard to learn, and most players quit after only a very short time. Toribash is great at catching audience attention (when it is marketed online *cough*) but not so good at treating new players. With that in mind let's move on to the next idea.

In-game campaign - As discussed above Toribash loses a lot of its new players. I think an ingame campaign consisted of "missions" would help a lot. If you've played Rocket League you know you can go through training missions focused on different skills, including goal keeping and striking. I think Toribash direly needs a progressive mission pool that teaches basic skills such as jumping, running knocking Tori off his feet. These missions could include simple tasks such as reaching a certain altitude at the start of the campaign to hitting a target with a ball by throwing it, or reaching a point by touching the ground only with your feet at later stages. Overall I think this would be absolutely essential for Toribash to stay alive in the future, and I personally would be honored to help out through mods and replaymaking (the player could be showed a ghost completing the task alongside them) or whatever else is deemed necessary for this to become a reality.

Better shader implementation - Shaders were so ridicilously poorly implemented it is actually infuriating. We all know how to load a shader, it is very easy. The problem with shaders lie in the fact that you need to have the shader file to load a shader through a mod. So say I want to create a mod on a peaceful farm in the middle of Dungland. I want a shader for my farm, so what do I have to do? First I have to manually edit a .inc file with notepad, which most players and even I have no experience in doing. Secondly I have to save the .inc file in my Toribash > data > shaders folder. Then I have to reffer to my shader in the modmanager. And finally when I publish my mod I must also upload a link to the .inc file for people to be able to see my mod with its intended shader. It is a ridicilous ammount of work that could be so much simpler by having a shader editor and merging the .inc file with the .tbm or .rpl file (yes replays can actually have custom shaders). I don't see the problem, no .inc file is over 1kb so that information could easily be merged into my mod or replay instead of having to refer to a separate file located in another folder.

Batch files - With shaders merged into .rpl or .tbm files we can move on to a bigger issue: separation of important files. I create a lot of replays that require a custom mod to view, and sadly enough the attention span of the human brain isn't long enough for people to download both the replay AND the mod. Most of the time the custom mod only has about 60% of the number of downloads as the replay, making the replay virtually useless to watch. This may not be a massive issue right now, but due to the additions of custom sounds and custom textures for mods and replays discussed earlier in the post this becomes a very critical problem. The solution is pretty simple though: Batch files, or packages. Say I created a really cool and elaborate mod with custom textures added to it, and in that mod I created a replay with custom sound effects. 60% of people would only download the replay and therefor only take part in 25% of the content. By packaging the .rpl file of the replay, the .tbm file of the mod, the .wav files of the custom sounds and the .tga files of the custom mod textures into only single package, a .tbp, players won't have to download 10+ files separately every time someone makes an elaborate replay. When the Toribash Package file is opened it would sort all the content into their respective folders and then open the .rpl file allowing for easy viewing of cool content. This would encourage players to create more advanced replays, as even I am discouraged by the fact that only 60% of my viewers will see the replay as it was intended.

Actual air friction - Air friction is when you throw a ball and it slows down due to colliding with air particles which absorb its momentum. Toribash doesn't have this, instead we have some kind of awkward default momentum falloff that makes absolutely no sense when compared to the actual world. While Toribash is usually pretty good at simulating reality, it falls awfully short in this regard. You want to do a double cork? Too bad, instead of your rotation slowing down every so slightly due to air friction(a rotating cylinder doesn't have much friction against the air) your momentum will decrease by a % every frame, meaning many tricks and other things become near impossible to accomplish. Air friction leads into the next point.

Realistic aerodynamics - This is an absolute stretch but I think it deserves a mention either way. Some of you may have played Beseige in the past couple of months and know how good that game has become at handling realistic airplanes or other flying devices. If Toribash could somehow handle this really heavy feature I think it could lead to some cool replays. An example where this would be useful besides creating wicked gliders and parachutes would be falling faster when your body is tilted downwards, would of course also work the other way when jumping upwards, and would add another meter to the already immense skillcap of this game.

More joint states - Pretty self explanitory, being able to only raise our shoulders or bend our feet up and down makes me sad and it would be great to see additional options added into the pool of joinstates. It would also be nice to be able to control the force of a contraction or extension, though this may be a bit over the top.

A realistic light and shadow engine - Many of you have probably played Skyrim, a great game as it is the light system was pretty lackluster. Very much like Toribash it fell short because there next to none realism, shadows didn't fall where the should have and most objects didn't even cast shadows. Same goes with Toribash, we currently have a system where one side of the world is shined upon by a very dim light coming from an invisible sun. The other part is slightly darker but no objects cast a shadow. I talked about light objects in the Mod section of this post and for that to work a new system would be essential. Make objects cast shadows and allow us to create our own lamps or even suns. Blender 3D does this really well and if we got this in Toribash it would elevate the game to a whole new level for me as a mod creator and a screenarcher.

Realistic default gravity - We all know the default gravity of Toribash is -9.82, people who haven't taken physics in highschool may not know that 9.82 is also the average gravitational acceleration of objects in freefall on earth. So why is it that -9.82 in Toribash is a floaty mess? Obviously because back in 2007 nobody had any idea how to play the game and achieving realism was thought of as an impossible task. -9.82 is very beginner friendly, which is great for Toribash, but for Toribash Next I am hoping there will be solutions other than making the game take place on a small moon to help new players get started. Ways to do this would be to have a better balanced Tori (he can't stand up for long, even in -9.82) or a more realistic and familiar way to move Tori. Obviously this is a very radical and controversial suggestions that is unlikely to work out but a man can dream.


Closing words

I am very excited for Toribash Next and so should you be. We need to continously pressure the devs to push for features we belive in.

With that said my final wish for this amazing game and community would be that we stay true to Toribash. Some of the ideas and suggestions in this post are radical and may change the game entierly, I hope discovering Next will be as great as discovering Toribash was the first time I played it over 6 years ago, but more importantly I want it to feel like the Toribash we know and love, but with sprinkles and chocolate sauce and possible some flavors other than vanilla.


Would be cool to get some discussion going on about what you think Toribash and Toribash Next needs in this thread. If you have any killer suggestions I would love to hear and discuss them

Also note that this list may be subject to change and that some of these ideas may already be features in the game that I do not know about.
"videogames" ~ videogames

Last edited by jisse; Aug 17, 2017 at 03:26 PM..
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Old Aug 17, 2017   #2
Obazu
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Well as Toribash Next is running on Unity3D engine, I believe some of these additions such as more realistic lighting system should pretty much be given.
I have some experience with the engine in question and I think when it comes to modding we can hope for quite a bit more than you are asking here. So here's some additions to your wishes I'd like to see:

Uninteractive objects: These could have a lot of use beyond aesthetic, if you made them note whenever theyre touched by the player. It would be great to be able to create an area where you can cause damage to player without otherwise affecting them physically. Also depending on what kind of trigger/scripting system will be implemented this could allow for tons of different applications. Being able to set different gravities for these would be extra neat.

Polygon editing: We can be sure there will be lots of new shapes to work with, when Next comes out. However instead of developers spending resources on creating all new polygon editor I'd like to see ability import custom models from 3rd party 3D modelling software like Maya or Blender3D. Seeing as there seems to be something similar already being implemented in our regular toribash modmaker, I would consider it very odd, if we didn't get it on Next as well.

Custom joint and part creation: Hampa already teased that we will be able to change the order of bodyparts and joints, so that atleast gives us something to work with. But of course that alone isn't what we want. My hope is that we'll also be able to add extra joints as that would be the next best thing if your joint state wish doesn't come true. If it doesn't happen we'll just have to go Frankenstein and chop up multiple toris into one.
I also want more shapes for these bodyparts.

Realistic aerodynamics: I dont really have anything to add to this wish. I just thought I'd point out that Besiege also uses Unity3d engine.

I thought I'd also add some suggestions of what I believe would still be realistic to wish for:

Objects moving independent of physics: I want objects that still collide with the player and push them around but aren't themselves affected by the collision. Also some sort of waypoint system for setting up paths for them to follow would also be in order.

Timeslider for viewing replays:
Like what we have on every videoplayer out there just find the wanted frame on the slider and click to skip straight to it.

And here some longer shots:

3D models with skeletal animation: The way animtion is done in most games. Being able to add these to mod would do a lot for turning our mods alive. Even cooler would be an option to parent these models to toris when viewing a replay and finally see what the movement looks like with more humanlooking models.

Being able to edit multiple frames within one turn:
Lets say your turn start on frame 0 and lasts for 10 frames. I want to first tell my wrist to start contracting from the start (frame 0) and then tell it to change into extending on frame 5. Maybe you could even use the time slider I suggested earlier to pick frames on your turn. This would give players extra control in mods like wushu while still keeping the exitement of having to plan out for longer turns.

I might post later with more suggestions.
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Old Aug 18, 2017   #3
jisse
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Fantastic to hear, I was not aware Next would be in Unity3D. Even more excited now.

I fear a lot of people will not get into creating custom objects if we do not have a built in 3D modeler, I'm pretty sure only a very small % of the playerbase has Maya or Blender installed and are proficient in them. It might be too much of a stress for most people.
We definitely need to be able to import 3D models though.

The multiple frames edit idea is fascinating as fuck and something I never thought about before. It turned me on a bunch at first but there are a couple of inconveniences, like it taking up a bunch more time than a regular turn, bumping up replay file sizes siginificantly and needing special controls to utilize it. Under pressure of a competitive match this might be a bit over the top for a player to handle in a short ammount of time.

It could be expanded into a sparring helper also, which would be a quality of life change especially for me who's a pretty fast worker.
Say I am sparring a less experienced player at 10 turnframes and infinite reaction time(most people seem to prefer this). I take 15 seconds to complete one turn and the other guy takes 30. That's 15 seconds of dead time for me every single turn. Take your idea and expand the turnframes from 10 to say 100. Now I get to spend my 150 seconds editing my tori like I would in singleplayer and space out when I am done. Then I get to shitpost on the forums or browse reddit for another 150 seconds until the other guy is done editing, making for a more efficient time to fun ratio, rather than me sitting idle in the server for 15 seconds every turn.
Combine this with a visible realtime ghost for players and sparring could become really fun again, and a much more streamlined experience.


Good suggestions, I like those
"videogames" ~ videogames
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Old Aug 18, 2017   #4
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Originally Posted by jisse View Post
Realistic default gravity

Regarding that, in the ODE physic engine (which current TB uses) -9.82 is Earth gravity. The reason it doesn't feel realistic is because you're thinking of them in human terms.

1.0 unit of size is 1 meter
1.0 unit of weight is 1 metric ton
1.0 unit of force is 1 newton
1.0 unit of velocity is 1 kph

The reason you have to raise gravity right up is because Toris aren't human sized and have enough movement power to leap into orbit.

Obviously that'll all change in Next since new engine, and new physics, but it'll give you something to think about for current modding if you really want to try and make them more humanish - it's pretty entertaining trying to keep them upright with realistic joint strength & body weight etc

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Old Aug 18, 2017   #5
jisse
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Thank you for that Skul. I was not aware we were being that scientific. Good to have some confirmation, now I can stop calling them X-units.

Also that would mean Tori is the tallest person to ever live, topping Robert Wadlow(2.72m) by a couple of centimeters
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Old Aug 21, 2017   #6
Obazu
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Here's another consept I thought of that would give us some extra control over our toris:

Instead of being only able to click the joint once and set it to go in one direction on full force we could keep the mousebutton pressed after clicking and move it to the direction we want the joint to rotate and the joint will use more force to rotate in the direction, the farther we move our mouse.
So for example if you clicked the lumbar joint, and move it to the left a bit you could make it start bending to the left with half of it's power.
There could be a graphic indicating the movement when we set it up. Maybe an arrow that's moving around the joint with the speed and and direction we set for the joint or a just a simple slider that fills up.
Maybe if we also had joints that could rotate on multiple axis, the rotated axis could be determined by the angle of the camera or whether you're moving the mouse up/down or left/right.
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Old Aug 21, 2017   #7
BinkLawz
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Disc joint.

Disc joint that allows axial rotaion.
best applied on :

Lower Arms,
Upper arms,
Shins ,
Upperlegs.

Just think about the hand rotation you can make out of it. Or being able to kick a ball forwards with the inner side of a foot.

what do you think Jisse?
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Old Aug 22, 2017   #8
jisse
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More types of joints or new joint-states are definitely a top contender for what we need. There are lots of movements you simply cannot do ingame, such as scratching your back or wiping your forehead.

Joints should be able to do what they are able to do IRL


The force suggestion isn't bad either, granted it is customizable to a great extent. I fear it might be too complicated for the average layman though. What we do not need is making Toribash harder to learn and more intimidating to beginners
"videogames" ~ videogames
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Old Aug 23, 2017   #9
BinkLawz
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Originally Posted by jisse View Post
More types of joints or new joint-states are definitely a top contender for what we need. There are lots of movements you simply cannot do ingame, such as scratching your back or wiping your forehead.

Joints should be able to do what they are able to do IRL


The force suggestion isn't bad either, granted it is customizable to a great extent. I fear it might be too complicated for the average layman though. What we do not need is making Toribash harder to learn and more intimidating to beginners


Adding new joints or joint rotation will ofcourse change the game difficulty.
The thought that the game wont ever evolve was more fearful. And thats why we get all this players like Obazu with this ingenieus joint ideas. Of course we need a reasonable mesure of complexity for NEXT.

Here's an idea. :
Just keep the default gameplay the way its gonna be, and
leave the 'more complex versions' to the modmakers who
are willing to apply mods with the extras. This way we get
give the options for starters to choose what else to do after
learning the default toris.
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