people playing: 115, servers online: 34, games played: 143,675,219 Top Player: deoxer

  Toribash Community » Toribash » Suggestions & Ideas
Register FAQ General Rules Community
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Mar 12, 2019   #1
Natejas

Hip 2 Be Square
 
5th Dan White Belt
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,542



Toricredit Board Rules Rework
So with the events currently taking place I've taken it upon myself to do the inevitable and create a thread with a rework of the rules currently in place regarding the selling of TC. In the spoiler below will be a set of rules proposed by myself based off the currently standing rules and this thread will act as a platform to either agree with my propositions in support for the change or debate what you think is wrong with it. Either way, your input is appreciated.

Toricredit Section Rules



I personally believe the application for verification to sell TC should stand no matter where it takes place, such as in-game, PM, etc. Anywhere someone can attempt to either sell or buy TC is able to be documented with a screenshot, the current rule of needing to take place in the Toricredits board and there only is useless due to this. Screenshots of any transaction occurring in-game are promoted through other global rules and should with common sense stand here as well. With what I've proposed it's putting more trust in the players but that's what the verification process is for, to ensure they're suitable to sell TC. People being banned for not scamming people and really just further showing their ability to sell TC honestly is nonsense. This systematic approach of 0 and 1 is not what Toribash needs, empathy and understanding of the situation need to be considered. With time zones, livelihood, and lack of staff effort it doesn't make sense to implement this current rule, the inconvenience outweighs the pros this rule offers. With my proposal none of this matters, people who sell TC casually continue to sell while those who are not supposed to face reasonable repercussions.

Common arguments debunked;

"The toricredit board is fool proof and can never be faked"
Almost any documentation provided with a scam cannot be faked, and if faked requires more effort than the majority would willingly commit too. Do we inconvenience the masses for an anomaly?

"This makes it easier for people to just sell TC because no one will report"
Well that's also a great flaw with the rule currently implemented, anyone can still sell TC and if no one reports or makes a big deal out of it, higher ups wouldn't know, yet people still get banned for it which leads me to believe that if unverified sellers attempt to sell there will be someone who reports them. My suggestions justs get rid of the useless waste of time and embarrassment of having to face the repercussions of being a trustworthy person being over moderated.

---

Please do leave you're comments and concerns as I would like to hear from more people and potentially better understand what the community would like and could come up with in an effort to stop the unjust bans that occur over this rule.

Useless/Off-topic post will be reported.
~ raku ~ Team Girl Scouts ~ Clan League 2013 Champion ~ Duelist ~
Prince
Fucking
Ravioli
Natejas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2019   #2
Chirox
Mocro, don't leave bro..
 
Isa Belt
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 13,487



I have one rule: ban tc selling
It's almost inevitable considering all the scams. Also, I think it would profit Nabi, since they would be the only legal source of tc purchase
DOING CUSTOM ANDROID APPS FOR TC/USD
Chirox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2019   #3
Wounder
woman driver no survivor
 
8th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 989
Clan: win



Originally Posted by Chirox View Post
I have one rule: ban tc selling
It's almost inevitable considering all the scams. Also, I think it would profit Nabi, since they would be the only legal source of tc purchase

i find it ironic since you've sold probably over 50,000,000tc in your time of toribash, but once you're finished with it you say this.

also this would only accentuate illegal deals, just like any other game that does this.
<[MAD]hampa> henlo
<[MAD]hampa> hello u stinky wounder
Wounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2019   #4
Smaguris
ub3r
 
Master Belt
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,930
Clan: Adventure



Originally Posted by Chirox View Post
I have one rule: ban tc selling
It's almost inevitable considering all the scams. Also, I think it would profit Nabi, since they would be the only legal source of tc purchase

I'd say around 5-10% of all market trades occur for the sole reason of obtaining an item that user wants to use. Most people on the market are trying to profit from their sales and purchases one way or another. By banning TC selling you're basically killing the whole market, probably remaining duellers as well.

There are risks and there are many loopholes to sell TC without being verified, that's just inevitable due to nature of these features. That said, it's way better solution for everyone involved than straight up banning sales.
Smaguris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2019   #5
Wizard
 
10th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,307
Clan: Adventure



Originally Posted by Wounder View Post
i find it ironic since you've sold probably over 50,000,000tc in your time of toribash, but once you're finished with it you say this.

also this would only accentuate illegal deals, just like any other game that does this.

This. Banning tc selling is definitely not the way to go.
[a]dventure

Wizard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2019   #6
Diamond
 
God Belt
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,036
Clan: July



So, basically, what Natejas is proposing:

-Verified sellers can sell TC however and wherever they want.
-Everybody else can't sell TC at all.

I agree with it.

Neither current system, nor the one proposed by Natejas really affect impersonators and prevent hijacked tc from being sold.
Maybe, in theory, the current system should work, but on practice most people either don't know that the system exists at all or neglect it because it's inconvenient to use. So:

-scammers aren't hindered at all. They don't care about your rules, they don't care about their accounts, they have nothing to lose. If they want to hijack an account and sell tc from it or just scam somebody in game or discord, they will do it and unknowing people will get scammed. Same about impersonation, scammer takes somebody's name and goes messaging people in Discord, hoping to run into somebody who doesn't know about the system. How does having verified sellers post their deals on forum affect this at all?

-verified sellers have to go through tedious routine and even risk getting banned if they fail to do it precisely how rules say

-buyers are more likely to get scammed, because most deals are offered in game or discord, and only scammers will offer deals like those, because verified sellers will get banned for doing so. And unknowing people are more likely to take such deals, because they're more quick and convenient.
For example: somebody asks me to sell them tc, but I don't have my thread open, so I can't do it right now and tell them to wait. If they don't want to wait, they'll try to find somebody who can sell them tc immediately and thus risk running into a scammer.

What will removing this requirement of having to post every deal on forum do:

-Make it much more convenient for sellers and their clients.

-Decrease the probability of unknowing people running into scammers, because now quick and convenient deals will be offered by verified sellers too.

In conclusion, I want to say that people themselves should be responsible for using their money on the internet. Staff should not take responsibility for people being stupid and getting scammed. Warning people of scammers is a good idea. But people should be free to decide whether they want to risk it and trust the person they're dealing with, or they want safety. In case they want safety, they should be able to go on forum and make a deal, but it shouldn't be obligatory. Their money - their responsibility.

Last edited by Diamond; Mar 13, 2019 at 05:17 PM..
Diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2019   #7
Natejas

Hip 2 Be Square
 
5th Dan White Belt
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,542



Another system that could be implemented is some way of displaying someone is verified such as an additional thing that comes up if someone does /info username or is displayed under the general info in a users post on the forums, just a thought I had at work the other day I'd like to snowball
~ raku ~ Team Girl Scouts ~ Clan League 2013 Champion ~ Duelist ~
Prince
Fucking
Ravioli
Natejas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2019   #8
Natejas

Hip 2 Be Square
 
5th Dan White Belt
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,542



How about a harder verification process? By eliminating just any joe from being allowed to sell TC only weller known members of the community can sell TC, taking into consideration account age, previous delinquencies, etc. I want to get as much feedback and suggestions from as many members of the community as possible so we can ensure whatever the updated policy is, it's both safe and convenient for everyone.
~ raku ~ Team Girl Scouts ~ Clan League 2013 Champion ~ Duelist ~
Prince
Fucking
Ravioli
Natejas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2019   #9
pouffy
<cocacobra> hes like an neckbeardling
 
7th Dan Black Belt
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,902



Account age and previous infractions are already taken into account, along with some intangibles. The only way I see it getting meaningfully more strict would be adding steps to verify character, which i imagine wouldn't be received well and would be sorta difficult to properly enforce.

btw this is all my opinion and nothing else

The obvious reason this system doesn't perform as well as it should is noncompliance. It'd be completely flawless if it had a 100% compliance rate -- If all buyers were to demand to buy TC via the toricredits board, there would never be a scam again. It starts to fall apart when buyers prefer to buy ingame -- where there are extra steps involved for buyers when checking if their seller is trustworthy, instigated by sellers not properly indicating how TC sales should be handled in accordance with rules -- and the system also falls apart when dopes prefer to use discord to buy TC, which has all the same problems as ingame except tenfold.

Noncompliance is a normal part of every system, and in this case it happens for multiple reasons.

Part of the issue is simple laziness - some sellers believe themselves to be above the system, whether its because they believe their trustworthiness should be obvious, or they simply can't be bothered to comply with the relatively simple requirements. They also don't always tell the people they're selling to that 1.) there is a board for these transactions and 2.) using that board is the ONLY FOOLPROOF WAY to prevent yourself from getting scammed, no matter how dumb you are. This is clearly evidenced by.. multiple.. high visibility cases... So, since we aren't able to trust sellers to get the word out about the correct way to buy TC safely, and since that isn't effective enough anyway, we need to look at other ways of increasing either 1.) visibility of the existence of the TC seller verification system or 2.) visibility of the TC board.

There are a lot of ways we could attempt to do this, but very few ways we could do this effectively.

Some foolproof ways:
  • Replace the game with a link to the Toricredits board
  • Use the broadcast system to advertise TC buying guidelines
  • Have staff go around and force people to get acquainted with TC buying guidelines via very determined harassment
  • Include a script in the game by default that prints a console message telling you about TC buying guidelines every time you send the words "TC" and "buy" in the same message

Slightly less foolproof ways:
  • Have links, statements, and references to TC buying guidelines/ToriCredits board in relevant and appropriate places, such as the ingame menu that allows you to buy from Nabi directly
  • Fit the global rules into the ingame UI, then see point above
  • Kindly ask our verified sellers to do more to promote the system that has allowed people to buy and sell TC much more safely than the system before it


The only hangup with now allowing sales ingame is that staff have cosigned a verification system that is only foolproof and operable on the forums. For there to be zero responsibility, moral or otherwise, in the case of ingame scams, you'd need to be able to automatically (so as to bypass human error/scumminess/dumbfuckery) check whether someone in a lobby is verified to sell TC. If that condition is met, I don't see the problem with it HOWEVER


Managing a list of verified sellers and having confidence that they won't do anything shady or scam other users requires a lot of steps and a lot of checks. Currently, the way MS have decided to maintain confidence in TC sellers is to check their TC sources before they're eligible to sell, and have both seller and buyer confirmation on the thread to ensure that 1.) a deal went through, 2.) both parties are completely solid on the rules and procedures when buying TC (indicated by the fact that both parties are completely compliant with rules)

There's probably some other justification for the status quo I'm unaware of, as well.

Maybe this whole system can be simplified, e.g. threads aren't removed/don't need to be remade, but MS instead do regular checks on transactions every week. I, personally, think that's a better system. To me, it seems like there'd be no real difference between those two procedures. however i still think subverting that system because you're lazy or can't be bothered is super irresponsible, "dishonest," and very worrisome

Maybe, too, everything will be ok as long as all sales are logged with proof on the forums. But, the more we reduce the 'unnecessary overhead' involved with checking up on sellers, the less confidence MS can have that their verified sellers can actually be trusted to sell TC. At some point, that might really need to be caught up with some unpleasant application process like character referrals, long waiting periods, etc.

not that i know anything about anything

As long as a system like this, that involves real money and has tangible real life consequences in the case of insecurity, is cosigned by staff, it needs to be backed with 100% confidence, out of moral responsibility if nothing else. If staff puts forth a system under the context of supporting something, and its unsafe and leads to loss or damage, that's a huge thing.


Last edited by pouffy; Mar 13, 2019 at 11:59 PM..
pouffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 14, 2019   #10
Diamond
 
God Belt
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,036
Clan: July



So, according to you, this system is perfect in theory, but it doesn't work because of ''noncompliance''.
Then, for example, I have a system that's perfect in theory, but won't work because of noncompliance, too: nobody scams anybody, everybody's nice and honest.

Perfect! But noncompliance won't let it work. It may be caused by anything, but it is the reality. Would you, perhaps, want a system that works in reality? I know I would!
In reality this system fails, even you said that ''it doesn't perform as well as it should'', while people who actually deal with it are telling you that all it does is bad.

Can somebody clearly, simply and briefly list it's pros and cons, as they see them? By that I mean not the reasons it was implemented, not justifying it with the strange desire to be responsible for what other people do with their money, but actual advantages(and maybe disadvantages) of having this system over no system at all.

I'm not necessarily saying that there should be no system, but I think it is important to make people understand, what you want your system to accomplish and what you think it accomplishes and how. Because to me, and not only me, but a lot of people involved with selling tc, this system seems like a useless nuisance.

Also, can we agree that people should be responsible for how they use their own money? Because I still think that staff shouldn't bother people at all with policing their usage of their own money. Yes, they might get scammed, but that's the risk that they choose to take.
Diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:48 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ragdoll fighting game physics fighting game ragdoll fighting physics funmotion joints martial arts karate pc mac free game turn based game