Golem IV - Rise of MELOG
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
All of this assumes that the majority of people are reasonable and understand the implications of their actions.

For instance, the majority of people are still queerphobic and casually spread queerphobic ideas through jokes or otherwise. Just because the majority doesn't see it as an issue doesn't mean it's not an issue. The majority of people have been bigoted for the entirety of human history. Leaving any of this up to "most reasonable people" is ridiculous because of this context. Centrism doesn't help us here (or ever).

I'd challenge your contention that most people are queerphobic, at least in modern western societies. You can't go out and call a gay person a faggot. That is a shunned act - You would get shouted down by onlookers. I also think that you can't draw a straight line between someone telling a joke (e.g. a wife-beating joke) and then some bozo going out and beating his wife because he heard that joke. It doesn't happen.

With respect to making jokes, I think this is another appropriate time to drop this quote;
"Although conceptual change is inevitable and often well motivated, concept creep runs the risk of pathologizing everyday experience and encouraging a sense of virtuous but impotent victimhood."

Disregarding universal queerphobia (which isn't a thing), the views that reasonable people hold change over time, of course. American founders were quite content to own slaves, as was everyone in the ancient world. It was a reality of the times. There are doubtless other 'moral revolutions' waiting to happen - And if they've valid, reasonable people will jump on board and establish new moral norms. That's how it happens.

Using the 'not wanting to fuck transexuals is bigoted' example, that ain't a valid problem. Tonakai, one of the most level-headed dudes I know, even agreed that that specific point was 'dumb'. The world will never come to a place where everybody thinks it's bigoted not to fuck a transexual, because that is simply not a reasonable concept (not now, not ever).

Factory farming is a legit problem, and if you talk with people about it, while they may view it as a necessary evil (there's a lot of mouths to feed), they'll also contend that when it no longer becomes necessary (and yes people will argue about whether its even necessary right now), it ought to stop immedietely. There's a moral revolution here waiting to happen, and it probably will happen. Reasonable people (spurred on by activists) will make it happen. This brings me back to what I said earlier;
Originally Posted by Ele
For the purposes of that check, anyone with super-strong leanings, one way or the other (SJWs or Nazis), can be safely ignored. That said, I'm not saying the SJW camp can't ever identify a problem that 'almost anyone' would agree is a problem - I'm sure they could (and probably have). I'm saying that everybody else (reasonable people) would have to agree with them in order for the problem they raise to be recognised as a legit problem.

Last edited by Ele; Feb 11, 2020 at 06:59 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
I'd challenge your contention that most people are queerphobic, at least in modern western societies. You can't go out and call a gay person a faggot. That is a shunned act - You would get shouted down by onlookers.

You'd like to think that, I would too... but that's actually not the reality. In most places even here in the US people do not feel comfortable coming out as queer, nevermind being visibly queer on the street.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
I also think that you can't draw a straight line between someone telling a joke (e.g. a wife-beating joke) and then some bozo going out and beating his wife because he heard that joke. It doesn't happen.

It is not that direct... but if someone is telling a joke about how disgusting trans people are... other people who are laughing along are vindicated if their feelings align with the joke. They see that others feel the way they do and feel less ashamed to speak their mind on the topic. It spreads these ideas which are rooted in prejudice. It removes weight from these issues, makes light of them. You know the type of people who enjoy jokes about trans people being weird or gross? People who think trans people are kinda weird or gross... You know the type of people who don't like jokes about husbands beating their wives? People who have experienced it firsthand (or secondhand... or who are just empathetic to those wives regardless...).
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
There are doubtless other 'moral revolutions' waiting to happen - And if they've valid, reasonable people will jump on board and establish new moral norms. That's how it happens.

So the majority of German citizens just being complacent with the alienation and subsequent genocide of Jews... the reasonable people jumped on board because it was a valid moral revolution? It's not that simple at all.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Using the 'not wanting to fuck transexuals is bigoted' example, that ain't a valid problem. Tonakai, one of the most level-headed dudes I know, even agreed that that specific point was 'dumb'. The world will never come to a place where everybody thinks it's bigoted not to fuck a transexual, because that is simply not a reasonable concept (not now, not ever).

Would you like me to ask Tonakai if I can share the screenshot of the discussion between him and I on this, where he changed his mind and agreed with me on the issue? He sure is level-headed, as you said.
<Hush> the beat feature sounds like the main event at a circle jerk festival
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
Well yes officer, but I only beat that defenseless child a little bit. You see, they were annoying me.
-----

"the pace which was meant to be"
What the hell does this mean? There is no pace which is "meant to be." I see bigotry, I tell people to fucking knock it off. If they don't, I explain why their behavior is problematic. You, in particular, have been incredibly resistant to understanding your own bigotry. There is no "pace which was meant to be" which prevents you from removing that bigotry more immediately. It's a very poor excuse not to be more tolerant. The only thing stopping you is your ego.


why don't you go pass laws instead of being an insufferable prick on the internet of all places?


I doubt ill see you ever making real change. RIP
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Originally Posted by Greg View Post
why don't you go pass laws instead of being an insufferable prick on the internet of all places?


I doubt ill see you ever making real change. RIP

I mean I'm part of several activist groups, I help organize protests, I educate queer youth, and I've been making friends with progressive politicians here in Seattle as of late. I'm working towards making more of an impact!

I also don't support laws which specifically aim to restrict speech. I'd rather people push shitty bigoted ideas away by collectively shaming that behavior. It's a slight difference, but I think it's important. I will push for laws which push for equal opportunity and open borders and the like though.

You should pivot back to the discussion instead of attacking me, just btw. This post of yours was not constructive in the slightest.
<Hush> the beat feature sounds like the main event at a circle jerk festival
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
You'd like to think that, I would too... but that's actually not the reality. In most places even here in the US people do not feel comfortable coming out as queer, nevermind being visibly queer on the street.

There's gays kids everywhere. It is not a taboo these days - It ain't the 50s.

Every now and again you'll see a video of some person being racist/sexist/homophobic to another person in some public place (like a bus). You ever see the comment sections for these videos? It's full of people calling the racist/sexist/homophobic person a piece of shit. Bigotry aint acceptable and any reasonable people knows that.

Originally Posted by Maya View Post
It removes weight from these issues, makes light of them.

Yes, that's what jokes are supposed to do. You take serious issues and you turn them into comedy. I think that putting a category of people into a space where they're 'protected' from jokes actually just disempowers and furthers the notion that these people are victims who should be treated differently from everyone else.

All comedy is fair game. There are bad jokes and there are good jokes. I've heard funny woman-beating jokes and I've heard horrible woman-beating jokes. Woman-beating jokes ought not to be banned. If they're bad, don't laugh.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
So the majority of German citizens just being complacent with the alienation and subsequent genocide of Jews... the reasonable people jumped on board because it was a valid moral revolution? It's not that simple at all.

There's some historical ignorance at play here. The German citizenry was not aware that Jews were being slaughtered in concentration camps. It wasn't until after the war that the true horrors of what was taking place came to light.

People rallied behind Hitler because he was 'Making Germany Great Again', not because 'Fuck The Jews'. In fact, many Germans were uncomfortable with the Nazi party's stance on Jews, so much so that Hitler and Goebbels substancially toned down that sort of rhetoric as the war progressed. The 'Fuck The Jews' thing was more of a personal project for Hitler (and some others of his inner circle).

If America was at war with Mexico and it came out that Hispanic Americans were being slaughtered in concentration camps, everybody would be suitably shocked and appalled. No reasonable people would agree with that shit.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
Would you like me to ask Tonakai if I can share the screenshot of the discussion between him and I on this, where he changed his mind and agreed with me on the issue? He sure is level-headed, as you said.

Sure. I'm somehow not surpised that you got him to tell you he changed his mind. I hope you didn't do it using that same 'logical' argument you used in that thread, because that was shithouse.
Last edited by Ele; Feb 11, 2020 at 08:19 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
There's gays kids everywhere. It is not a taboo these days - It ain't the 50s.

In online spaces, sure. In specific cities, sure. But the majority of people are still not exactly the most active in these spaces. There is much of rural America where being queer is not okay at all. Also, lots of people are queerphobic while not necessarily spitting at/beating up/shouting slurs at queer people they see. I still cannot casually say something that suggests I'm queer in most online spaces without getting rude replies.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Every now and again you'll see a video of some person being racist/sexist/homophobic to another person in some public place (like a bus). You ever see the comment sections for these videos? It's full of people calling the racist/sexist/homophobic person a piece of shit. Bigotry aint acceptable and any reasonable people knows that.

There are also tons of racist/sexist/homophobic comments on the internet as well, depends on where you are.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Yes, that's what jokes are supposed to do. You take serious issues and you turn them into comedy. I think that putting a category of people into a space where they're 'protected' from jokes actually just disempowers and furthers the notion that these people are victims who should be treated differently from everyone else.

The problem is that you don't know what a "good" joke about trans people is... because you don't understand trans people. Jokes painting trans people as weird or ugly are in bad taste and truly aren't funny to progressive people who have subconsciously normalized transgenderism. You don't see white comics making jokes punching down at black people anymore because we've deemed that humor inappropriate and in bad taste. The same will come of punching down at queer people at some point, hopefully soon. I don't want us to be "protected" from jokes... but if the only jokes made about us by cis people are about shitty, negative, inaccurate stereotypes associated with trans people, then we've got a problem.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
There's some historical ignorance at play here. The German citizenry was not aware that Jews were being slaughtered in concentration camps. It wasn't until after the war that the true horrors of what was taking place came to light.

People rallied behind Hitler because he was 'Making Germany Great Again', not because 'Fuck The Jews'. In fact, many Germans were uncomfortable with the Nazi party's stance on Jews, so much so that Hitler and Goebbels substancially toned down that sort of rhetoric as the war progressed. The 'Fuck The Jews' thing was more of a personal project for Hitler (and some others of his inner circle).

I'm not going to continue a discussion on this specific topic here, but people were complicit. Poles especially so. I've done a great deal of research on the topic and have heard a number of stories from family.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Sure. I'm somehow not surpised that you got him to tell you he changed his mind. I hope you didn't do it using that same 'logical' argument you used in that thread, because that was shithouse.

I didn't "get him to tell me." I explained it the same way I did to you in the thread and he responded "I see your point now." We went on to agree on a great many points brought up in that thread. We discussed how to get yall on board with the normalization of trans people, how to remove the ignorance. It was really productive. The dude watches contrapoints funnily enough.
Last edited by Maya; Feb 11, 2020 at 08:59 AM.
<Hush> the beat feature sounds like the main event at a circle jerk festival
Originally Posted by Enclave View Post
Beating them senseless isn't the same as disciplining them for doing something wrong -_-.

Oh really? No way, such a distinction was beyond my understanding prior. You've really opened my eyes with this astounding lack of absolute awareness and understanding of viable and transferable comparisons that aren't at opposite ends of the hypothetical spectrum.

Beating them senseless isn't where the line of abuse is. Its like that stupid thing people used with "if ur hand is open its ok" and/or "if theres no mark its not abuse cuz they didnt bruise"

Imagine thinking that. Imagine justifying that kind of behaviour. If you equate abuse to beating a person so hard and for the length of time needed to actively impair their cognitive functions. Then you are suggesting that any amount of beating up until that point comes under discipline.

Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that is probably not what you meant, but it's what you've implied pretty heavily. So feel free to re-explain where you think that "abuse" line starts and what examples of *physical* discipline are a-okay.

Cause I'm real curious.
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Originally Posted by Maya View Post
In online spaces, sure. In specific cities, sure. But the majority of people are still not exactly the most active in these spaces. There is much of rural America where being queer is not okay at all. Also, lots of people are queerphobic while not necessarily spitting at/beating up/shouting slurs at queer people they see. I still cannot casually say something that suggests I'm queer in most online spaces without getting rude replies.

Gonna have to agree to disagree about the majority of people being queerphobic. Ain't reasonable to call gay people faggots.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
The problem is that you don't know what a "good" joke about trans people is... because you don't understand trans people.

Mate, comedy is subjective. What you think a 'good' joke is is different to what I think a 'good' joke is. We all have our own senses of humor.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
Jokes painting trans people as weird or ugly are in bad taste and truly aren't funny to progressive people who have subconsciously normalized transgenderism.

Yes. Some jokes aren't for some people. Doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed not to joke about them. If they're in bad taste and unfunny, then they're in bad taste and unfunny - Don't laugh at them.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
You don't see white comics making jokes punching down at black people anymore because we've deemed that humor inappropriate and in bad taste.

I've seen plenty of white comics engaging in racial comedy. Seen plenty of it that's funny too.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
I don't want us to be "protected" from jokes... but if the only jokes made about us by cis people are about shitty, negative, inaccurate stereotypes associated with trans people, then we've got a problem.

It seems like you do want to be protected from them. You don't want people to be allowed to make those jokes. 'Shitty, negative, innaccurate'... Shitty is subjective, but other than that, you want all jokes to be 'positive' and 'accurate'? That'd result in some really fucking boring comedy mate. Comedy is supposed to challenge your sensibilities.

"How do you get a faggot to fuck a woman? You fill her cunt with shit". That is a joke that's in bad taste and uses some very offensive language. It's also hilarious (in my opinion and in the opinion of everyone else who laughed at it during Gilbert Gottfried's comedy special). Precisely because it's so wrong and offensive, it's funny. You can think it's a shit joke and that it deepens prejudices and whatnot, that's your right. You can't tell people what jokes they can and can't make though.. You can piss off with that joke-nazi thinking.
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
I'm not going to continue a discussion on this specific topic here, but people were complicit. Poles especially so. I've done a great deal of research on the topic and have heard a number of stories from family.

Don't wanna talk about it? But you're still right because you're supremely educated on the topic? OK bud. Whatever.
Last edited by Ele; Feb 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM.
Originally Posted by Icky View Post
Oh really? No way, such a distinction was beyond my understanding prior. You've really opened my eyes with this astounding lack of absolute awareness and understanding of viable and transferable comparisons that aren't at opposite ends of the hypothetical spectrum.

Beating them senseless isn't where the line of abuse is. Its like that stupid thing people used with "if ur hand is open its ok" and/or "if theres no mark its not abuse cuz they didnt bruise"

Imagine thinking that. Imagine justifying that kind of behaviour. If you equate abuse to beating a person so hard and for the length of time needed to actively impair their cognitive functions. Then you are suggesting that any amount of beating up until that point comes under discipline.

Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that is probably not what you meant, but it's what you've implied pretty heavily. So feel free to re-explain where you think that "abuse" line starts and what examples of *physical* discipline are a-okay.

Cause I'm real curious.

Why the long post. If a kid steals or gets in a fight, pop them on the hand with a paddle. Don't beat them with a belt though...
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Infracted for having the best goddamn replays in Toribash history.

Why the cop out? You said you got hit with a belt, but apparently it made you better. But your new post says "oh dont do that"

??

Bruh a paddle? A paddle?!

A thing that is designed to hit hard or press down across a large surface area, evenly?

On the hand? Of a CHILD?
A place with extremely little protection? On a being that HAS to trust you for their safety and care?

You believe thats the right course? That's your teaching system?

That's barbaric.
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