Toribash
Original Post
[War] Current ranking system.
Hello.

I've been extremely "motivated" to play the game these past few months just because of the war system. I love competitive gaming and enjoy Toribash so combining those in a clanwar is so much fun for me. But I just heard from GM's (Moop, Smallbowl) that the ranking system is completely uncompetitive. For example the ranked #1 clan [Wapow] in the last 50 games have lost 24, which is almost half (26 wins 24 losses). On the other hand # 41 [Parrot]s full record is 25 wins 4 losses. [Wapow]'s full record is too long to document so I only took the last 50 games seen, so the data isnt fully accurate but still very clear. There should be no reason [Parrot] is ranked #41.

What is the point of a ranking system, if it does not encourage winning? How can you rank clans if the point system is unable to record even remotely accurately the best clan (which Im not saying we are)? Getting only points for winning in a ladder where you can war as much as you like is indeed a bit pointless.

In order for Toribash to generate even the slightest hint of esport viability (which would be awesome) fixing the ranking system should be high priority. At its current state it does not encourage winning other than "for honour", and it definitely does not give any gratification from being a high ranked clan. The knowledge that it doesnt really matter if you win or lose does really lower my motivation for warring.

I really hope to hear about the problems that my proposal might pose and would be more than happy to help the mod team in this problem to create a better ranking system and a better competitive enviorment for us all.



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EQUATION FOR RANKINGS (important shit)

here



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I will address the problems and solutions in PS.

1. How?

There are plenty of algorythms and scripts of ladder/ranking systems online, and If that is hard to implement, even a simple 1 point per lose 1 point per win would be better than the current system.

2. Would It cause clans to only play games that are certain wins?

If the point system rewards winning higher ranked team then definitely not. It would actually benefit the lower ranked teams to challenge higher ranked ones. Thus creating a richer and more diverse ladder.

3. Clans would only pick their own mods then?

My proposal is that in "ladder matches" if agreement on the mod cannot be found its half and half mods, each clan chooses an official mod and its split. If both are fine with lets say ABD, no problem.

4. It would deter casual players from warring?

Possibly, but then again the games casual nature is the largest part of the experience already. Dedicating a small part of TB to competition would be fine in my opinion

5. What about the current ladder?

That is up to the devs, I personally would be fine with a reset or implementation into the current standings.

Pros:

-Easy to reward active clans and players with prizes for winning.
- Brings "professionalism" to warring.
-Competition is fun and so is winning, it is very satisfying to climb the ladder and achieve a higher rank when you really deserve it!

Cons:

-Implementation could require some work/programming which I dont understand so I cannot comment on it.
Last edited by cowmeat; Oct 23, 2015 at 12:49 PM.
Originally Posted by Hattersin
Can I just add that amount of members participating and winning their matches needs to be accounted for in the formula.
It'd be weird if a clan got top rank for just having one person solo all day, but still it should be a possibility for the willing.

These variables are accounted for in the current system.
That is precisely how WAPOW climbed to #1, we have dedicated active members who work together in wars, we never solo.

I am not a fan of the current system either, but as it is the system which exists, I am not complaining about it but working within it.
If/when a new system is implemented, I won't complain then either but do the same.

BTW, WAPOW is not the only clan with an active war team.
Obey is another example of a clan which rose to #1 quickly and held it for a long duration.

The key to achieving rank in the current system is activity and teamwork.
Originally Posted by Krulls View Post
These variables are accounted for in the current system.
That is precisely how WAPOW climbed to #1, we have dedicated active members who work together in wars, we never solo.

I am not a fan of the current system either, but as it is the system which exists, I am not complaining about it but working within it.
If/when a new system is implemented, I won't complain then either but do the same.

BTW, WAPOW is not the only clan with an active war team.
Obey is another example of a clan which rose to #1 quickly and held it for a long duration.

This thread isnt about going agaisnt WAPOW. its to improve the current system. No need to be defensive.

"The key to achieving rank in the current system is activity and teamwork." It feels more like just spamming wars to me, not teamwork.

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Originally Posted by DrHax View Post
I would think an ideal, perfect world, clan ranking system would depict the clan who was strongest at #1. Not the one who was most active.

That's what I'm striving for here, an accurate way of determining the best clan while including activity as one of the requirements.
Last edited by JtanK; May 8, 2015 at 12:54 AM. Reason: merge
I would think an ideal, perfect world, clan ranking system would depict the clan who was strongest at #1. Not the one who was most active.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
I didn't intend to be defensive in anyway.
Just chiming in on the subject.

BTW pointing out our war record and cough*WAPOW*cough being the repeated theme makes me think there is a soft target here.

Agreed DrHax, I would like to see a system in which the best clans were ranked the highest.

And just to clarify, WAPOW doesn't spam wars, we just fight them as we encounter them, we just happen to be very active players.
Last edited by Krulls; May 7, 2015 at 11:50 PM.
Originally Posted by Krulls View Post
I didn't intend to be defensive in anyway.
Just chiming in on the subject.

BTW pointing out our war record and cough*WAPOW*cough being the repeated theme makes me think there is a soft target here.

That is only the side effect of you guys being #1, I would still argue unfortunately that WAPOW isnt the strongest clan in the game. Its not about WAPOW its about the ranking system being inaccurate. If it was any other clan with a not so strong record I would use that clan as an example.
Please. Just stay on subject, no here giving suggestions should care about who's number 1. Not like it matters anyway.

The war system should have an overhaul, yes.

But please, stay on subject or I'm going to start deleting posts that aren't really relevant.
Originally Posted by Cheshyre View Post
Please. Just stay on subject, no here giving suggestions should care about who's number 1. Not like it matters anyway.

The war system should have an overhaul, yes.

But please, stay on subject or I'm going to start deleting posts that aren't really relevant.

of course, have you checked out the formula, if so what is your opinion on it? Do you think it has correct parameters?
Originally Posted by DrHax View Post
I would think an ideal, perfect world, clan ranking system would depict the clan who was strongest at #1. Not the one who was most active.

If you're not active enough to be challenged it makes no sense to be first.

It would be good if we could get Fish or whoever is a dev to post here with some reasoning behind his stance.
PM me with any and all questions
Originally Posted by Hattersin View Post
If you're not active enough to be challenged it makes no sense to be first.

Again, and I agree fully we need the head Dev who's taking responsibility for the system to comment, it depends on what the Clan Ranking system tries to measure.

In a perfect world, if I were in charge of making the most magical ideal ranking system, the absolute best wushu player would be ranked 1 in wushu3.tbm/brushu. And he would more than likely only play unranked matches if he played anyone not in the top 100, because that's how matchmaking in successful games work.

If what you're trying to measure is a clan's absolute strength, activity really can't play a huge part in the scoring system. You have copious clans (more than 80%) of the top 15 in the official ranks who wouldn't on their best day win a war against the most talented clans in Toribash. In a system that cares about actual strength, you wouldn't have Team Girl Scouts in 120, RelaxAll in 145, Alpha in 152, and NO in 300. Nor would you have other clans, who I won't name out of respect for their hardwork and activity anywhere near the top 10.

Maybe you feel differently, maybe you think the point of the clan ranking system is to encourage constant warring and activity is super duper important. That makes sense too. I'm telling you what I'd enjoy in a system. If nothing else, I'm okay with that explanation because clans like Obey and WAPOW do keep an active warring community alive. Lord knows for fun Alpha will scrimmage Nitro just to goof around and they are great sports and very active.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
The current clan system encourages activity rather than skill and honestly I think that's a good thing. A lot of the top ranking clans right now aren't the most skill-full but they are definitely active, which is great. Instead of making a clan rank system a skill thing it should be made to be funnier, more interesting rewards etc.

Maybe staff could add "bonus" clan points for completing challenges throughout the week.

If a rank to determine skill is put out there then "player" rank should be priority, then clans.