Endurance Onslaught 4
Original Post
Reinstate a Past Ranking System (An Argument for Change)
Please think clearly about what I'm going to say about the ranking system before you just say no.

This ranking system was a cool attempt at making the "better players" have a higher rank but it simply didn't work.

To quote [RAWR]Dargon:

The problem is ELO systems don't work in a game like toribash.

My main argument is that the current ELO system supports the absolute opposite of what Nabi Studios would want to have in an atmosphere to acquire new players. It also casts out enthused players who want to try lots of different things and learn from better more experienced people.


1) The current system rewards those who don't try a variety of mods.

Most high rank people (Read: 1-35) are there because they played the hell out of 1 mod and didn't venture off to try other mods. The point being that it's way easier to go 60 wins 2 losses in a game like jousting with one decent opener against new players and have a super high ELO (proof... well me) than it is to go 20-5 in a slower mod like Wushu.

Playing MORE mods should be what the game encourages; however, if you start playing aikido and only have an ELO of say 1610, when your jousting ELO is 1700, your rank plummets. Thus playing more mods currently is a bad thing.

2) The point system doesn't work and frustrates members.

A good example is what happened to me yesterday. I played brushu, and won a game against [fl0w]Deprav (a highly ranked brushu player), then a game against [Alpha]Logic (the #1 ranked brushu player in toribash), followed by a loss to the ranked 120th player or somewhere in that region. The net result? I actually lost 2 ELO points. I won 2 games, and lost 1, my 2 games were incredibly quality wins, and actually got a WORSE rank.

This just goes to show the math simply isn't working here. If you can beat the absolute best player, a fantastic player, and then lose to a great player, and be worse off when you started... well that's simply counter-intuitive isn't it?


3) The current system discourages playing people who aren't good (the Ambassador argument)

Better players of toribash are really the ambassadors for Nabi studios more than even GameMasters from time to time. They give new people a chance of what could come of them and the beauty of highly skill play. But the current system deterrs amazing people to play those who aren't good because one lost game can make the great player lose a LOAD of ranking. Getting a streak of 5, then losing once, only to have the same or worst ranking as you started is completely disheartening. You should want great players to want to play with not-so-great-ones to really show what your character can look like, what toris can do, and learn from them.

http://forum.toribash.com/tori_ranki...?username=Mojo This is the #1 Ranked player in Toribash. Check out the stats. Notice anything? Outside of JOUSTING and KATANA this player, the player who will represent all of the thousands of thousands of players who some started in 7 years ago as NUMBER ONE has a 1600 ranking in almost every skill mod out there. Has Wushu3, aikido, taekkyon, you name it. 1600 is the starting elo...

4) Our current top ranked leaders aren't role-models (a continuation of the Ambassador argument)

SEVEN of the top TEN players ranked globally in toribash haven't reached 3rd Dan Black Belt. Two of them haven't even reached black belt yet. These members aren't well-known good people in great clans that people aspire to. There are absolutely amazing players in clans like [RAWR] whos rank is near the 2000's meanwhile players you and I have never even heard of are sporting the highest of ranks. Is that really who you want to learn is the "best"? Who would you feel more comfortable being rank 5: TIcux, or "BigClitor" or "BigPrick" (I kid you not, those last 2 are both in the top 10)

5) Promotes rage quitting. It's simple: if you have a 1700 mmr in jousting and someone has a 1590 mmr rating, and they are about to lose to you, they'll lose a shit ton of ranking unless they ragequit. We should be encouraging people to stay the whole match.



TLR Summary

The current system makes unaccomplished players look like heroes to new players, tells people not to play a variety of mods, encourages the play of simple fast mods like judo and jousting over a variety of mods that might take more skill (aikido, aikidobigdojo, lenshu, wushu, taekkyon, judofrac) to name a few, mathematically seems to not work, and discourages the great players who should serve as ambassadors from playing with new players, and RAGE QUITTING.



The Solution? Bring back the QI system!!!

The highest rank people should be the people with the highest QI because that's what actually works in Toribash. Why?

1) Because rage quitting sucks and we should encourage people to stay through the whole match. Rank 15 whoever should want to accept defeat against rank 500,000 white belt honorably because he might be getting closer to Rank 14. Meanwhile, that white belt's DAY WAS MADE beating you.

2) It give quantifiable reason to PLAY TORIBASH. The more you play, the more QI you get, the higher your rank. The old people who have given years and years don't feel like idiots with thumbs up where the sun don't shine because they're rank 3000, and the newer players WANT black belt, 2nd dan, 5th dan, 10th dan, WHATEVER to improve their rank! Isn't a line-up like Tripstone, DJ, TIcux, Nuthug, Kamiko, Dargon a better top 6 than .... Mojo, Kindercat, zaeby, PREY3R, and pedart?

3) It doesn't discourage you from playing any mod you want. Sure, jousting is faster than aikido, and a person who only plays jousting will get QI faster and have a higher rank. But at least if you like jousting, and you decide to play some aikido, you won't completely f over your rank playing it.

4) It encourages coherency AND LEARNING throughout toribash. When you want to get good at a mod, you typically surround yourself with people much better than you (ergo, want to be an aikido player? Play team sambo members. Etc). But you're going to lose a lot doing that. I don't think you should hate yourself from trying to learn a mod because it dropped your rank from 200 to 1700.



And I ALREADY know the major criticism. THIS SYSTEM PROMOTES FARMING!!!

Yes. It does. Having QI determine your rank absolutely promotes farming. But what sounds better of a problem? Farmers farming, and more than likely getting caught because we have ways to catch farmers pretty easily (check out that community ban list!) or having hundreds of people rage quitting to save their rank? Losing rank by the hundreds from trying something new? I think the choice is obvious.


A last point

All of toribash has ever been is playing more toribash. Since you first joined, you probably wanted to wear a color that required you play more games, or get a belt you want, even a custom belt, etc. Make the system reflect what toribash is actually about-> stress-free fun, punishment free, playing. We already have our win-loss ratio publicly posted. If you want to prove your skilled try to increase that. There's no need for this system which 100% DOESN'T work.




To those of you who have read all of that, thank you. I appreciate it. To those of you who didn't, I recommend you do, because you're going to probably make posts that I've already addressed in this argument.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; May 23, 2013 at 02:21 AM.
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And a compromise I found very compelling was simply allow us to toggable OFF our rank.

That way, whether we use this ranking system, or another one in the future, we can show what's associated with us. Because I've shown without reasonable doubt that this one is quite frankly terrible.

And really, back to the "best out of the worst", the QI system, is terrible, but you agreed- ITS MUCH BETTER when Saintowar is ranked 50 than 6000. That's a toribash I can live with.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; May 24, 2013 at 08:13 AM.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
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They should make it relevant to activity, i remember speaking to ticux about this.
I guess also making an ELO system where important mods matter more sounds good..but it can be pretty tedious.
Your messed up world enthrills me
Originally Posted by William View Post
They should make it relevant to activity, i remember speaking to ticux about this.
I guess also making an ELO system where important mods matter more sounds good..but it can be pretty tedious.

Relevant to activity based on what? Games played? Because if it's gamesplayed in a weekly or daily frame, your crowning jousting and judo king again.

If it's based on straight games played, that's QI. Which is what I've been advocating all along.



Ranks will never accurately depict which players are better in skill, so they might as well depict where you are in respect to others in experience.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
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While the ELO system has its flaws, its a step in the right direction when it comes to dictating player skill. Imo all that needs to be done is to put more weight on the 'important' mods when determining global rank.

I don't think we need to go back to the Qi system since its not an accurate portrayal of skill. Besides, we already have belts that already serve as an indicator of your total QI.

The current system just needs a little tweaking to make it fit for Toribash, thats all.

Ranks can't accurately portray skill, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to refine the ranking system as much as you can. Going back to the QI system would basically be giving up.
Last edited by DaNooB23; May 25, 2013 at 10:56 AM.
"Fear not the Tori who has practiced 10,000 openers once, but fear the Tori who has practiced one opener 10,000 times."
I think the ELO system is a waste of time. My rank goes from 200 to 1k even if I win every game. Doesnt make much sense....
"People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people."
DaNoob: if we were even 20% there, I'd say don't give up on it. But we're in a terrible spot. If you actually tracked it like I have, you could see it.

PVp is right! I've actually won 3 games in a row and went from 89 to 97 ranking, but had I not played at all, I would've Had a better rank.

I dread playing in public rooms now. Losing 2 games out of 5 trashes my ratings.






Look my case and point is that currently, in-game, the ranking system is the largest blemish. And it's huge. You can't not display it, it's with you wherever you play for all to see, and it honestly might as well be random. If you ask anyone right now they'll say it's a joke.

Remove it, allow me not to display it, or at least make it easily understandable -> QI
Originally Posted by Hxcbbqimo View Post
DaNoob: if we were even 20% there, I'd say don't give up on it. But we're in a terrible spot. If you actually tracked it like I have, you could see it.

Its a step in the right direction. Not a leap, a step. It still can (and should) be improved on but since no tweaks have been done to system so far, chances are there won't be any modifications done to the system anytime soon. My main grudge with your suggestion is that QI has nothing to do with skill, therefore it shouldn't be used to indicate skill, which is pretty much what everyone looks at rank as.

The ELO system could be a lot better if tweaks are made to make it work better for Toribash but I do agree that we are in a terrible spot since the system has been left the same for way too long.

I would opt for a massive rank reset followed by the introduction of a modified ELO system, but I already know everyone would be largely opposed to it.
"Fear not the Tori who has practiced 10,000 openers once, but fear the Tori who has practiced one opener 10,000 times."
Can I ask you why not just base it off QI? Aren't we rewarding the right thing by doing so?


There are ELO systems in Starcraft, Chess, or DotA because a good player has a gigantic chance of beating a not so good player. Toribash, that's not true.


Edit*

I remember 4 years ago, part of the reason I logged on, got involved, purchased color sets, etc was to see not just my belt go up when I won and lost, but my rank.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; May 26, 2013 at 07:01 AM.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
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Originally Posted by Hxcbbqimo View Post
Can I ask you why not just base it off QI? Aren't we rewarding the right thing by doing so?

Its because, while we would be rewarding and I guess motivating players, we would be invalidating the ranking system in the process.

Remember before when people claimed rank was meaningless since it was based off of QI? That saying actually had some merit to it. At least now you can say that your 2 digit mod rank in aikido holds some weight. Its not perfect, but like I've said before, its a step in the right direction.

An increase in rank is the reward for playing well (not just playing) and that's the way it should be. I think we're better off focusing on what other rewards we can give to players for showing the behaviors you stated. Untradeable items, titles and icons would be a good start.
Originally Posted by Hxcbbqimo View Post
There are ELO systems in Starcraft, Chess, or DotA because a good player has a gigantic chance of beating a not so good player. Toribash, that's not true.

I think the same can apply to Toribash as well. A good player may not have a gigantic chance of beating a not so good player, but most likely the good player will come out on top.
"Fear not the Tori who has practiced 10,000 openers once, but fear the Tori who has practiced one opener 10,000 times."
Danoob:

I'd like to contest you on two points.

1) Your mod rank now matters. Absolutely not. In every wushu mod out there, a guy named "Pr3yer", a stiff unimpressive player holds near rank 1. In brushu, it's by a gigantic amount. Meanwhile there are guys who are in triple digits that outclass him in every way.

2) The better player having a "good chance" to come out on top isn't apparent enough for ELO to work. There have been times where I won 4 games in a row in wushu, lose to someone, and my ranking is lower than what it started out. So even if there's a pretty decent advantage, it's not good ENOUGH.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
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