Toribash
Original Post
Upgrade tori control system | IK controls
In my opinion to upgrade tori control system developers should make something work similar to Maya 3d animation but with physics. I just want to say that it would be better to control tori by pulling parts of the body during turns. Watch this video and think about this idea
https://youtu.be/XII9aKbVXrg
Why it will upgrade toribash. You will have more precision. You will be able to have more control of your tori. Will be better to play mods. Just will be easier. You will be able to make more moves. I know it hard to make again tori control system but it will give to you more capabilities. I would like to see this system in toribash. Are you agree with my idea?

Lengthy post from snake

Example from cappuccino
Last edited by sir; Jan 17, 2018 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Uptade
For everyone posting here, old tb isn't going to day the day tb next is released, if tbn with different physics and controls turns to be a different game, so be it, play the one you want, with the old people trying to defend it, that seems to be the majority posting in this thread.
Also, I don't see many people giving good reasons to support it or not to support it, and don't contribute much, even the OP is repeating the same thing others (snake) say, over and over again.

Now, that said, I think we should still keep the way of controlling joint by clicking mixed with the dragging, because some moves require the use of isolated joints, here thinking if we want the finest move control, nothing else. Like, if we click the elbow, it extends with full force in one axis, and the shoulder, in the same move, holding or relaxing.
Like I said in a earlier post, if joints have muscle tone trying to keep the move you wanted, for example, you drag the hand/arm in front of you, and the opponent hits the hand, your body will get pushed along with it, it'll only limit your options, instead of relaxing the shoulder so your arm is pushed away and you attack with another limb. Something that can be doable in current tb.
And something that people seems to overlook or not care, is the limit of 1 axis per joint, look at wrist movements, look at shoulders, neck, hips, even feet, in real life we can move those joints in the 3 axis, so its a must have if we want to improve the game, and if we get to have 3 axis joints, we'll get rid of at least 4 joints, shoulders/pecs should be one joint, and hips/glutes another. Maybe the use of only 2 joints for the spine movement, so, less joints+more movement capabilities= a win in my book.
Also, isn't like "ah, its going to be easy/er/ish" because, yes, most new people will be able to fight in couple days or weeks without crawling on the floor, but with experience you'll get finer and finer movements, like, in real life, a brown belt in karate will be able to do some techniques, yes, but put him up with a 2nd dan, yeah, I thought so. The end.
That dosent sound bad at all. Use both systems ) harld level insane but cool.

Maybe toribash next will use a different system. Maybe even this one. Hope we see a screen of tb next sometime soon.
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disclaimer
talking about
Noribash Text


Originally Posted by MariaVirgine View Post
Now, that said, I think we should still keep the way of controlling joint by clicking mixed with the dragging, because some moves require the use of isolated joints, here thinking if we want the finest move control, nothing else. Like, if we click the elbow, it extends with full force in one axis, and the shoulder, in the same move, holding or relaxing.
Like I said in a earlier post, if joints have muscle tone trying to keep the move you wanted, for example, you drag the hand/arm in front of you, and the opponent hits the hand, your body will get pushed along with it, it'll only limit your options, instead of relaxing the shoulder so your arm is pushed away and you attack with another limb. Something that can be doable in current tb.

err i think it would be easier to think about it withouth the terms such as relax / hold or concept of muscles
i'd say we need to look at it as we look on wooden puppet


as i believe we should think in terms of simpicity, and we don't really need to know do the tori have muscles or does it use joints as origin of force, as in the end with the ball axis joints it would not really matter

i still don't get relax/force argument

in my understanding the way IK controls should work is that the body is never relax or hold, you move an arm for example, and the ghost will follow you

so if you want to go low, instead of relaxing, you would grab your torso and move it down, and the rest of the stuff will follow, same story about the arms or legs



Originally Posted by MariaVirgine View Post
And something that people seems to overlook or not care, is the limit of 1 axis per joint, look at wrist movements, look at shoulders, neck, hips, even feet, in real life we can move those joints in the 3 axis, so its a must have if we want to improve the game, and if we get to have 3 axis joints, we'll get rid of at least 4 joints, shoulders/pecs should be one joint, and hips/glutes another. Maybe the use of only 2 joints for the spine movement, so, less joints+more movement capabilities= a win in my book.

yeah, that is my reasoning too, as with ball axis joints you may decrease it's amount drastically, while increasing a degree of control you have drastically

currently leg movement (talking about one leg isolated) requires 4 joints, missing a foot side tilt and hip tilt to side, so basically

hip side, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend
4 | 4

while ball axis joints, obviously with configured constraints, because thats how all the animated rigs work (you rig a skeleton and set up the constraints for each part)
will have only 3 joints but all possible movement

hip side, hip tilt, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend, ankle tilt
4 | 6

absolutely the same story about the arms, as our arms and legs are similar

and another extremely cool example:

torso rotation, tilt and abs contraction are done by 3 joints

all of those can be done with one ball axis one
3 | 3
vs
3 | 1

Originally Posted by MariaVirgine View Post
Also, isn't like "ah, its going to be easy/er/ish" because, yes, most new people will be able to fight in couple days or weeks without crawling on the floor, but with experience you'll get finer and finer movements, like, in real life, a brown belt in karate will be able to do some techniques, yes, but put him up with a 2nd dan, yeah, I thought so. The end.

exactly! the game is about the movement, the control scheme is just and interface, and when the 2 people fight, both of which mastered the controls, the one who knows what he's doing will win,
so streamlining the control scheme will only lower the barrier of entry, not deprive the game from skill or complexity


i have an idea about variable turn frames depending on the amout of movement you do, which i would also like to discuss, when we will sort out that IK is cool, but in short i think that asymmetrical turns based on amount of movement you do would drastically improve the game, and introduce a concept of "commit", as of currently, opponents react to each other in the same time, no matter how big or small changes they made to the previous tori state, which is kind of derp, and part of the reason why for example complex techniques like hip throws are so hard to execute, as the opponent react to you same turn you try to commit, but thats a whole another talk that we may have later
Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 01:14 PM.
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15
The concept of the movement being challenging is what brought me into the game in the first place. I had a very basic understanding of movement like any other beginner, but I later on watched some amazing replays. This made me think "I want to do that!" and it inspired me to continue playing. It took a while but I kept evolving with time and got better and better. Eventually I ended up becoming a rather good replaymaker with my very own style and mindset of looking at things in the game. If this had a drag and drop mechanic all of that work would be for nothing, and people would probably just look at this game as a little toy to play around with for an hour or 2 just to have it be an icon sitting on their desktop that hasn't been clicked on for the rest of time. This is a casual game that allows you to evolve at your own pace and focus on many different things such as replaymaking and competetive style gameplay.

First thing that would happen with this game if this was implemented is that the replaymaking concept dies instantly. Everyone can basically do anything so what's the point of trying to show it off?
With that being gone. There is nothing left for me in this game, neither would there be anything left for the remaining replaymaking community. This game is my favorite for the fact that I experienced myself evolve in it with time. And it was very visible. If this game is too hard for you, go play minibash. It obviously wasn't made for you in the first place.

I had the exact same suggestion back in the day when I had played the game for a week. I look back and cringe at that post because I had totally missed the point of the game. The game might not have been made with that point in mind, but nontheless it's the point that brought this game into success. You're killing off half the games community just to make it easier for the newbies in the beginning, and then this makes them bored because they have already achieved everything they wanted in the game in a week.
|Opener by Xioi|#KillTheScootCork|
|Replays|
"Cool delfin med solglajjor" -Larfen
No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No

No, no upgrading animation bullshit, that isn't what Toribash is. Toribash is fucking meant to be a silly fuck around game where realism happened out of chance. No one making this game had in mind that realism shit for replaymaking and play was a thing that was supposed or would happen AT all.

So doing this, like me, i know a lot of others would agree saying Tb would die quicker than it already is.

Keep Tb as Tb is, we have our own community, and sure we aren't growing too much anymore. But again, this community is like a ridiculous retarded family grouped together.

IF you want stupid shit like changing animation and other bs, just go to an animation program or a game like Endporphin. And leave Tb alone.


If anyone legit puts this through, or even gets it to any sort of stage where it would be implumented, i'd pack up and leave abrubtly since i couldn't be bothered anymore.

The game is what it is, if it's dying that's better than fucking murdering it with stupid additions.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

dude, thats just another pile of salt about hundreds/thousands hours wasted

and this one
Originally Posted by Xioi View Post
The game is what it is, if it's dying that's better than fucking murdering it with stupid additions.

is the shittiest kind of additude

again, i remind that we are talking about Noribash Text, not the current version of tb if it wasn't obvious enough.........

anyway,
i already explained in my previous posts that the premise of "hurr durr cummunity" is baseless, as most of the people who play toribash play already got used to the controls after years wasted mastering em, or those who have a shit hardware that they can not play any other games. and thats pretty much it.

the core stays the bloody same no matter what the control scheme is

turn based ragdoll fighting game with great focus on user-generated-content

thats it.

people who are the tarrget audience meaning the people who stay in the game for long are those who are interested in animation (replay makers / mp players that play the game for the concept of it // artists / texturemakers )
these are the kind of people that form the core of community and what makes tb community different from any other

notice that discussions are about ingame techniques, not ingame optimization, otherwise most of tutorials out there would've been about shovel kind of stuff
also discussions and tutorials on art, such as texturing and mapping, colors, aestetics etc
discussions on replays and tutorials that help to make it more fluid

see?

these the kind of things that interest community in it's core,

control scheme is irrelevant in these spheres
and to add more clarification:

movement consist of series of moves, with IK drag control you will do the same series of moves, but much straightforward and streamlined way

to give an example:
if the guy don't know what's he doing, he will try to push / kick the opponent
so his sequence of move will look like: he moves arms forward tries to push and if it doesn't work - he may try to move his leg to kicks the opponent

on the other hand the player who knows a bit better what he's doing will lower his arms first and then raise it to push the opponent out (shovel)

and then somebody who knows the game a bit better will rotate his body sideways and then raise one of his arms to do a side throw

all of these still consists of series / sequences of moves, so it's ABSOLUTELY the same way the game is currently played, with only difference is that currently we use asswards control scheme that was innovative 12 years ago, but currently in 2k18 looks and acts like a rudiment, when the industry standards such as IK have emerged.
so instead of moving the pars how we want straight away, we have to mess with 18 joints
again, the game does not change for us no matter how we control the tori, as the matches consist from several turns, 8-10 turns usually

match consists of moves we do based on decisions we make according to the situation we see.

do you see anything related to balls or clicking on them here?...
i don't because it's the interface, not the bloody game at it's core
Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 02:50 PM.
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15
I'm sorry but pretty much anyone could avoid a shovel if the controls were this easy. Your argument is basically "nobody mentions the mouse clicking when you describe an epic fight in league of legends". And no, the controls have definetly improved sicne the creation of the game. just take a look at this
|Opener by Xioi|#KillTheScootCork|
|Replays|
"Cool delfin med solglajjor" -Larfen
TB-Next | Inverse Kinematics Controls
Inverse Kinematics, for those who don't know what's that - google it before replying to this thread, you will spare us some time and nerves

i thought about it recently, as after my interactions with blender and animation it became quite clear that the current control scheme doesn't work, and nobody in their sanity would bother to waste years to learn how to control the tori, in order to do some basic movements,

if i was a new player - i would not even fire up toribash twice
the controls are not for humans
i can achieve much more and much faster in blender,
and any new player would expect to have at least that fluidity of control
the fact that i spent 10 years to master how current assward controls works to freely do some basic movement does not mean that it's good or skillful
as the matter of fact the game for me is about moving how i want, not necessary fighting controls



something like this would work quite well imo, or even without the hotkeys, but this kind of windrose




so you select an IK part, like... wrists/elbows/feet/knees
when you selected it, this windrose shows up next to it
you grab X with mouse and it moves on X plane like shown in video
you grab Y - y plane, well you got the idea
-----
here what another old player / 3d modeler / animator had to say
Originally Posted by dengue View Post

Originally Posted by Haluejah View Post
Now you just turned from determined to butthurt because someone proved your point wrong. If you really want this, program a game yourself, it doesnt seem like you understand the difficulty of this.


Toribash next will be made in a game engine that allows IK animated models and IK controls,
has Physics of Rigid Body, ragdolls and more features to work well with the new control system,
the complexity would not be an issue with the experience of the devs throught the years.

Originally Posted by Original View Post
I've read a lot of great points, but simply putting, the reason toribash is fun, is because it isn't easy.

what makes a game entertaining are the game mechanics and I simply think toribash mechanics are boring at this point.

The Challenge there would be the competition between players, wich is not only the controls, it is the technique and
strategy they execute to lead them to victory.

Also, there are customization, visuals and community of the game, which would bring people to it.

I would be interested in seeing the entire mechanics and controls of the game. Fencing championship

Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 11:00 PM. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
tell me about aikido
~referencing Dark Souls in suicidal threads since 13/01/15
Originally Posted by Bowblend
I don't agree with you snake. Your idea will destroy toribash definitely. You will make toribash too easy. I hate this idea. All legends will learn toribash again. Some peoples master toribash for years and you want to destroy it.

Just because changing the controls doesn't mean the physics of the game would change. The opponent player would have the same controls as you have, so its a new way of fighting your opponent under the same physics based environment.
Last edited by MrSofty; Jan 6, 2018 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Had to quote the deleted post
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