Original Post
Upgrade tori control system | IK controls
In my opinion to upgrade tori control system developers should make something work similar to Maya 3d animation but with physics. I just want to say that it would be better to control tori by pulling parts of the body during turns. Watch this video and think about this idea
https://youtu.be/XII9aKbVXrg
Why it will upgrade toribash. You will have more precision. You will be able to have more control of your tori. Will be better to play mods. Just will be easier. You will be able to make more moves. I know it hard to make again tori control system but it will give to you more capabilities. I would like to see this system in toribash. Are you agree with my idea?
Lengthy post from snake
Example from cappuccino
https://youtu.be/XII9aKbVXrg
Why it will upgrade toribash. You will have more precision. You will be able to have more control of your tori. Will be better to play mods. Just will be easier. You will be able to make more moves. I know it hard to make again tori control system but it will give to you more capabilities. I would like to see this system in toribash. Are you agree with my idea?
Lengthy post from snake
Example from cappuccino
Last edited by sir; Jan 17, 2018 at 05:18 PM.
Reason: Uptade
For everyone posting here, old tb isn't going to day the day tb next is released, if tbn with different physics and controls turns to be a different game, so be it, play the one you want, with the old people trying to defend it, that seems to be the majority posting in this thread.
Also, I don't see many people giving good reasons to support it or not to support it, and don't contribute much, even the OP is repeating the same thing others (snake) say, over and over again.
Now, that said, I think we should still keep the way of controlling joint by clicking mixed with the dragging, because some moves require the use of isolated joints, here thinking if we want the finest move control, nothing else. Like, if we click the elbow, it extends with full force in one axis, and the shoulder, in the same move, holding or relaxing.
Like I said in a earlier post, if joints have muscle tone trying to keep the move you wanted, for example, you drag the hand/arm in front of you, and the opponent hits the hand, your body will get pushed along with it, it'll only limit your options, instead of relaxing the shoulder so your arm is pushed away and you attack with another limb. Something that can be doable in current tb.
And something that people seems to overlook or not care, is the limit of 1 axis per joint, look at wrist movements, look at shoulders, neck, hips, even feet, in real life we can move those joints in the 3 axis, so its a must have if we want to improve the game, and if we get to have 3 axis joints, we'll get rid of at least 4 joints, shoulders/pecs should be one joint, and hips/glutes another. Maybe the use of only 2 joints for the spine movement, so, less joints+more movement capabilities= a win in my book.
Also, isn't like "ah, its going to be easy/er/ish" because, yes, most new people will be able to fight in couple days or weeks without crawling on the floor, but with experience you'll get finer and finer movements, like, in real life, a brown belt in karate will be able to do some techniques, yes, but put him up with a 2nd dan, yeah, I thought so. The end.
Also, I don't see many people giving good reasons to support it or not to support it, and don't contribute much, even the OP is repeating the same thing others (snake) say, over and over again.
Now, that said, I think we should still keep the way of controlling joint by clicking mixed with the dragging, because some moves require the use of isolated joints, here thinking if we want the finest move control, nothing else. Like, if we click the elbow, it extends with full force in one axis, and the shoulder, in the same move, holding or relaxing.
Like I said in a earlier post, if joints have muscle tone trying to keep the move you wanted, for example, you drag the hand/arm in front of you, and the opponent hits the hand, your body will get pushed along with it, it'll only limit your options, instead of relaxing the shoulder so your arm is pushed away and you attack with another limb. Something that can be doable in current tb.
And something that people seems to overlook or not care, is the limit of 1 axis per joint, look at wrist movements, look at shoulders, neck, hips, even feet, in real life we can move those joints in the 3 axis, so its a must have if we want to improve the game, and if we get to have 3 axis joints, we'll get rid of at least 4 joints, shoulders/pecs should be one joint, and hips/glutes another. Maybe the use of only 2 joints for the spine movement, so, less joints+more movement capabilities= a win in my book.
Also, isn't like "ah, its going to be easy/er/ish" because, yes, most new people will be able to fight in couple days or weeks without crawling on the floor, but with experience you'll get finer and finer movements, like, in real life, a brown belt in karate will be able to do some techniques, yes, but put him up with a 2nd dan, yeah, I thought so. The end.
) harld level insane but cool.
disclaimer
talking about
Noribash Text
err i think it would be easier to think about it withouth the terms such as relax / hold or concept of muscles
i'd say we need to look at it as we look on wooden puppet
as i believe we should think in terms of simpicity, and we don't really need to know do the tori have muscles or does it use joints as origin of force, as in the end with the ball axis joints it would not really matter
i still don't get relax/force argument
in my understanding the way IK controls should work is that the body is never relax or hold, you move an arm for example, and the ghost will follow you
so if you want to go low, instead of relaxing, you would grab your torso and move it down, and the rest of the stuff will follow, same story about the arms or legs
yeah, that is my reasoning too, as with ball axis joints you may decrease it's amount drastically, while increasing a degree of control you have drastically
currently leg movement (talking about one leg isolated) requires 4 joints, missing a foot side tilt and hip tilt to side, so basically
hip side, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend
4 | 4
while ball axis joints, obviously with configured constraints, because thats how all the animated rigs work (you rig a skeleton and set up the constraints for each part)
will have only 3 joints but all possible movement
hip side, hip tilt, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend, ankle tilt
4 | 6
absolutely the same story about the arms, as our arms and legs are similar
and another extremely cool example:
torso rotation, tilt and abs contraction are done by 3 joints
all of those can be done with one ball axis one
3 | 3
vs
3 | 1
exactly! the game is about the movement, the control scheme is just and interface, and when the 2 people fight, both of which mastered the controls, the one who knows what he's doing will win,
so streamlining the control scheme will only lower the barrier of entry, not deprive the game from skill or complexity
i have an idea about variable turn frames depending on the amout of movement you do, which i would also like to discuss, when we will sort out that IK is cool, but in short i think that asymmetrical turns based on amount of movement you do would drastically improve the game, and introduce a concept of "commit", as of currently, opponents react to each other in the same time, no matter how big or small changes they made to the previous tori state, which is kind of derp, and part of the reason why for example complex techniques like hip throws are so hard to execute, as the opponent react to you same turn you try to commit, but thats a whole another talk that we may have later
talking about
Noribash Text
Originally Posted by MariaVirgine
Now, that said, I think we should still keep the way of controlling joint by clicking mixed with the dragging, because some moves require the use of isolated joints, here thinking if we want the finest move control, nothing else. Like, if we click the elbow, it extends with full force in one axis, and the shoulder, in the same move, holding or relaxing.
Like I said in a earlier post, if joints have muscle tone trying to keep the move you wanted, for example, you drag the hand/arm in front of you, and the opponent hits the hand, your body will get pushed along with it, it'll only limit your options, instead of relaxing the shoulder so your arm is pushed away and you attack with another limb. Something that can be doable in current tb.
err i think it would be easier to think about it withouth the terms such as relax / hold or concept of muscles
i'd say we need to look at it as we look on wooden puppet
as i believe we should think in terms of simpicity, and we don't really need to know do the tori have muscles or does it use joints as origin of force, as in the end with the ball axis joints it would not really matter
i still don't get relax/force argument
in my understanding the way IK controls should work is that the body is never relax or hold, you move an arm for example, and the ghost will follow you
so if you want to go low, instead of relaxing, you would grab your torso and move it down, and the rest of the stuff will follow, same story about the arms or legs
Originally Posted by MariaVirgine
And something that people seems to overlook or not care, is the limit of 1 axis per joint, look at wrist movements, look at shoulders, neck, hips, even feet, in real life we can move those joints in the 3 axis, so its a must have if we want to improve the game, and if we get to have 3 axis joints, we'll get rid of at least 4 joints, shoulders/pecs should be one joint, and hips/glutes another. Maybe the use of only 2 joints for the spine movement, so, less joints+more movement capabilities= a win in my book.
yeah, that is my reasoning too, as with ball axis joints you may decrease it's amount drastically, while increasing a degree of control you have drastically
currently leg movement (talking about one leg isolated) requires 4 joints, missing a foot side tilt and hip tilt to side, so basically
hip side, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend
4 | 4
while ball axis joints, obviously with configured constraints, because thats how all the animated rigs work (you rig a skeleton and set up the constraints for each part)
will have only 3 joints but all possible movement
hip side, hip tilt, hip front/back, knee contract/extend, ankle contract/extend, ankle tilt
4 | 6
absolutely the same story about the arms, as our arms and legs are similar
and another extremely cool example:
torso rotation, tilt and abs contraction are done by 3 joints
all of those can be done with one ball axis one
3 | 3
vs
3 | 1
Originally Posted by MariaVirgine
Also, isn't like "ah, its going to be easy/er/ish" because, yes, most new people will be able to fight in couple days or weeks without crawling on the floor, but with experience you'll get finer and finer movements, like, in real life, a brown belt in karate will be able to do some techniques, yes, but put him up with a 2nd dan, yeah, I thought so. The end.
exactly! the game is about the movement, the control scheme is just and interface, and when the 2 people fight, both of which mastered the controls, the one who knows what he's doing will win,
so streamlining the control scheme will only lower the barrier of entry, not deprive the game from skill or complexity
i have an idea about variable turn frames depending on the amout of movement you do, which i would also like to discuss, when we will sort out that IK is cool, but in short i think that asymmetrical turns based on amount of movement you do would drastically improve the game, and introduce a concept of "commit", as of currently, opponents react to each other in the same time, no matter how big or small changes they made to the previous tori state, which is kind of derp, and part of the reason why for example complex techniques like hip throws are so hard to execute, as the opponent react to you same turn you try to commit, but thats a whole another talk that we may have later
Last edited by snake; Jan 6, 2018 at 02:14 PM.
The concept of the movement being challenging is what brought me into the game in the first place. I had a very basic understanding of movement like any other beginner, but I later on watched some amazing replays. This made me think "I want to do that!" and it inspired me to continue playing. It took a while but I kept evolving with time and got better and better. Eventually I ended up becoming a rather good replaymaker with my very own style and mindset of looking at things in the game. If this had a drag and drop mechanic all of that work would be for nothing, and people would probably just look at this game as a little toy to play around with for an hour or 2 just to have it be an icon sitting on their desktop that hasn't been clicked on for the rest of time. This is a casual game that allows you to evolve at your own pace and focus on many different things such as replaymaking and competetive style gameplay.
First thing that would happen with this game if this was implemented is that the replaymaking concept dies instantly. Everyone can basically do anything so what's the point of trying to show it off?
With that being gone. There is nothing left for me in this game, neither would there be anything left for the remaining replaymaking community. This game is my favorite for the fact that I experienced myself evolve in it with time. And it was very visible. If this game is too hard for you, go play minibash. It obviously wasn't made for you in the first place.
I had the exact same suggestion back in the day when I had played the game for a week. I look back and cringe at that post because I had totally missed the point of the game. The game might not have been made with that point in mind, but nontheless it's the point that brought this game into success. You're killing off half the games community just to make it easier for the newbies in the beginning, and then this makes them bored because they have already achieved everything they wanted in the game in a week.
First thing that would happen with this game if this was implemented is that the replaymaking concept dies instantly. Everyone can basically do anything so what's the point of trying to show it off?
With that being gone. There is nothing left for me in this game, neither would there be anything left for the remaining replaymaking community. This game is my favorite for the fact that I experienced myself evolve in it with time. And it was very visible. If this game is too hard for you, go play minibash. It obviously wasn't made for you in the first place.
I had the exact same suggestion back in the day when I had played the game for a week. I look back and cringe at that post because I had totally missed the point of the game. The game might not have been made with that point in mind, but nontheless it's the point that brought this game into success. You're killing off half the games community just to make it easier for the newbies in the beginning, and then this makes them bored because they have already achieved everything they wanted in the game in a week.
"Cool delfin med solglajjor" -Larfen
