Toribash
Original Post
Reinstate a Past Ranking System (An Argument for Change)
Please think clearly about what I'm going to say about the ranking system before you just say no.

This ranking system was a cool attempt at making the "better players" have a higher rank but it simply didn't work.

To quote [RAWR]Dargon:

The problem is ELO systems don't work in a game like toribash.

My main argument is that the current ELO system supports the absolute opposite of what Nabi Studios would want to have in an atmosphere to acquire new players. It also casts out enthused players who want to try lots of different things and learn from better more experienced people.


1) The current system rewards those who don't try a variety of mods.

Most high rank people (Read: 1-35) are there because they played the hell out of 1 mod and didn't venture off to try other mods. The point being that it's way easier to go 60 wins 2 losses in a game like jousting with one decent opener against new players and have a super high ELO (proof... well me) than it is to go 20-5 in a slower mod like Wushu.

Playing MORE mods should be what the game encourages; however, if you start playing aikido and only have an ELO of say 1610, when your jousting ELO is 1700, your rank plummets. Thus playing more mods currently is a bad thing.

2) The point system doesn't work and frustrates members.

A good example is what happened to me yesterday. I played brushu, and won a game against [fl0w]Deprav (a highly ranked brushu player), then a game against [Alpha]Logic (the #1 ranked brushu player in toribash), followed by a loss to the ranked 120th player or somewhere in that region. The net result? I actually lost 2 ELO points. I won 2 games, and lost 1, my 2 games were incredibly quality wins, and actually got a WORSE rank.

This just goes to show the math simply isn't working here. If you can beat the absolute best player, a fantastic player, and then lose to a great player, and be worse off when you started... well that's simply counter-intuitive isn't it?


3) The current system discourages playing people who aren't good (the Ambassador argument)

Better players of toribash are really the ambassadors for Nabi studios more than even GameMasters from time to time. They give new people a chance of what could come of them and the beauty of highly skill play. But the current system deterrs amazing people to play those who aren't good because one lost game can make the great player lose a LOAD of ranking. Getting a streak of 5, then losing once, only to have the same or worst ranking as you started is completely disheartening. You should want great players to want to play with not-so-great-ones to really show what your character can look like, what toris can do, and learn from them.

http://forum.toribash.com/tori_ranki...?username=Mojo This is the #1 Ranked player in Toribash. Check out the stats. Notice anything? Outside of JOUSTING and KATANA this player, the player who will represent all of the thousands of thousands of players who some started in 7 years ago as NUMBER ONE has a 1600 ranking in almost every skill mod out there. Has Wushu3, aikido, taekkyon, you name it. 1600 is the starting elo...

4) Our current top ranked leaders aren't role-models (a continuation of the Ambassador argument)

SEVEN of the top TEN players ranked globally in toribash haven't reached 3rd Dan Black Belt. Two of them haven't even reached black belt yet. These members aren't well-known good people in great clans that people aspire to. There are absolutely amazing players in clans like [RAWR] whos rank is near the 2000's meanwhile players you and I have never even heard of are sporting the highest of ranks. Is that really who you want to learn is the "best"? Who would you feel more comfortable being rank 5: TIcux, or "BigClitor" or "BigPrick" (I kid you not, those last 2 are both in the top 10)

5) Promotes rage quitting. It's simple: if you have a 1700 mmr in jousting and someone has a 1590 mmr rating, and they are about to lose to you, they'll lose a shit ton of ranking unless they ragequit. We should be encouraging people to stay the whole match.



TLR Summary

The current system makes unaccomplished players look like heroes to new players, tells people not to play a variety of mods, encourages the play of simple fast mods like judo and jousting over a variety of mods that might take more skill (aikido, aikidobigdojo, lenshu, wushu, taekkyon, judofrac) to name a few, mathematically seems to not work, and discourages the great players who should serve as ambassadors from playing with new players, and RAGE QUITTING.



The Solution? Bring back the QI system!!!

The highest rank people should be the people with the highest QI because that's what actually works in Toribash. Why?

1) Because rage quitting sucks and we should encourage people to stay through the whole match. Rank 15 whoever should want to accept defeat against rank 500,000 white belt honorably because he might be getting closer to Rank 14. Meanwhile, that white belt's DAY WAS MADE beating you.

2) It give quantifiable reason to PLAY TORIBASH. The more you play, the more QI you get, the higher your rank. The old people who have given years and years don't feel like idiots with thumbs up where the sun don't shine because they're rank 3000, and the newer players WANT black belt, 2nd dan, 5th dan, 10th dan, WHATEVER to improve their rank! Isn't a line-up like Tripstone, DJ, TIcux, Nuthug, Kamiko, Dargon a better top 6 than .... Mojo, Kindercat, zaeby, PREY3R, and pedart?

3) It doesn't discourage you from playing any mod you want. Sure, jousting is faster than aikido, and a person who only plays jousting will get QI faster and have a higher rank. But at least if you like jousting, and you decide to play some aikido, you won't completely f over your rank playing it.

4) It encourages coherency AND LEARNING throughout toribash. When you want to get good at a mod, you typically surround yourself with people much better than you (ergo, want to be an aikido player? Play team sambo members. Etc). But you're going to lose a lot doing that. I don't think you should hate yourself from trying to learn a mod because it dropped your rank from 200 to 1700.



And I ALREADY know the major criticism. THIS SYSTEM PROMOTES FARMING!!!

Yes. It does. Having QI determine your rank absolutely promotes farming. But what sounds better of a problem? Farmers farming, and more than likely getting caught because we have ways to catch farmers pretty easily (check out that community ban list!) or having hundreds of people rage quitting to save their rank? Losing rank by the hundreds from trying something new? I think the choice is obvious.


A last point

All of toribash has ever been is playing more toribash. Since you first joined, you probably wanted to wear a color that required you play more games, or get a belt you want, even a custom belt, etc. Make the system reflect what toribash is actually about-> stress-free fun, punishment free, playing. We already have our win-loss ratio publicly posted. If you want to prove your skilled try to increase that. There's no need for this system which 100% DOESN'T work.




To those of you who have read all of that, thank you. I appreciate it. To those of you who didn't, I recommend you do, because you're going to probably make posts that I've already addressed in this argument.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; May 23, 2013 at 02:21 AM.
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but then by the way you're wanting it to be, how would "competitive mods" be categorized, and would a mod made after the "competitive mods" were chosen have a chance to become one of these "competitive mods"? I honestly think there would be too much work put into something that isn't really even needed in the game.
Originally Posted by FistofLife View Post
You do not understand that using this system would just provide the exact same problem there is now. Right now the best way to gain rank is to noob bash. Using that method, the best way would be to just noob bash.

The only way to get true skill is to do equal skilled players vs equal skilled players in multiple mods.


Of course noob bashing would be completely avoidable—we already know how that could be solved. The reason I didn't mention it was because there's no point in talking about it more o:



Originally Posted by Zero View Post
but then by the way you're wanting it to be, how would "competitive mods" be categorized, and would a mod made after the "competitive mods" were chosen have a chance to become one of these "competitive mods"? I honestly think there would be too much work put into something that isn't really even needed in the game.

Damn, I think you might be right. However, categorizing "competitive mods" has been done before o:
Last edited by Super; Aug 25, 2014 at 04:13 AM.
fl0w
Originally Posted by Super View Post
Of course noob bashing would be completely avoidable—we already know how that could be solved. The reason I didn't mention it was because there's no point in talking about it more o:




Damn, I think you might be right. However, categorizing "competitive mods" has been done before o:

Wait how is noob bashing avoidable? I am not aware of this.

Competitive mods are pretty easy to determine, that is like saying "how do we know what mods should be for public lobbys or clan league or any event ever" everyone knows what the basic competitive mods are.
To see someones rank you have to actually see them play, right. You very rarely see their rank in other scenarios, so why is it so hard to look for yourself and decide if they're good or bad? ELO fills it's role as a tool but not an accurate representation of skill.

Originally Posted by DaNooB23 View Post
While the ELO system has its flaws, its a step in the right direction when it comes to dictating player skill. Imo all that needs to be done is to put more weight on the 'important' mods when determining global rank.

I don't think we need to go back to the Qi system since its not an accurate portrayal of skill. Besides, we already have belts that already serve as an indicator of your total QI.

The current system just needs a little tweaking to make it fit for Toribash, thats all.

Ranks can't accurately portray skill, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to refine the ranking system as much as you can. Going back to the QI system would basically be giving up.

I think this was a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Seriously, how fucking sane wasn't what this guy just said.

I believe what DrHax suggested as a solution should be a bannable offense.
Last edited by Hattersin; Aug 25, 2014 at 02:41 PM.
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To prevent noob bashing, we should exclude people below black belt from gaining rank. Also, create ranked servers for the ranked mods, so people who want to gain rank can join there (minbelt black or whatever the threshold is going to be), and turn off ranking everywhere else.
Ynvaser that also wouldn't work since alts would be vs noobs.
Anyway, say everyone agreed on a system, is this actually gonna happen or are devs not gonna change anything since this thread was started a very long time ago.
Originally Posted by FistofLife View Post
Ynvaser that also wouldn't work since alts would be vs noobs.

Can't see how that'd cause alts to be more frequent. On the contrary, it'd probably lead to a drop in alt use.
Don't you think the system would be better if there were specific 'ranked' servers?
This not only prevents farming, but it makes sure the whole spectrum of players are forced together, meaning there would be greater distribution of knowledge and movesets, putting the whole community on equal footing.
The only problem I see is with queue time, if servers like this took off they would surely be crowded. I'm not sure how the TB servers work and how many rooms could be dedicated to this...

Ah sorry this has already been suggested in this very thread!

Rather than imposing a qi limit, you could split one mod into several rooms, and have qi limits on them.
Kinda like ranking in starcraft or league no?
It would mean any alt would simply steamroll through the lower rankings, thus not spending a significant amount of time noob bashing.

Or, and I don't know if this is possible, limit ranking to a single account per ip. Sure, this would not stop the more persistent ones, but it would help?

Which mods are considered suitable for 'ranking' could be left for the community to decide, or alternatively an initial lineup is deployed, which would allow feedback from the community.

Really this is a good idea and nearly everyone I've talked to has supported a new ranking system in one form or another, why is nothing done?
Last edited by Fear; Aug 28, 2014 at 01:56 PM.
Originally Posted by Fear View Post
Don't you think the system would be better if there were specific 'ranked' servers?
This not only prevents farming, but it makes sure the whole spectrum of players are forced together, meaning there would be greater distribution of knowledge and movesets, putting the whole community on equal footing.
The only problem I see is with queue time, if servers like this took off they would surely be crowded. I'm not sure how the TB servers work and how many rooms could be dedicated to this...

Ah sorry this has already been suggested in this very thread!

Rather than imposing a qi limit, you could split one mod into several rooms, and have qi limits on them.
Kinda like ranking in starcraft or league no?
It would mean any alt would simply steamroll through the lower rankings, thus not spending a significant amount of time noob bashing.

Or, and I don't know if this is possible, limit ranking to a single account per ip. Sure, this would not stop the more persistent ones, but it would help?

Which mods are considered suitable for 'ranking' could be left for the community to decide, or alternatively an initial lineup is deployed, which would allow feedback from the community.

Really this is a good idea and nearly everyone I've talked to has supported a new ranking system in one form or another, why is nothing done?

This is basically my idea but a much simpler, and since Toribash is pretty basic (and lazy) this actually looks achievable.

Maybe mods could be on a rotation thing for lobbys, so every 24 hours all rank lobby's mod changed. E.g

Mon: Lenshu3ng.tbm
Tue: ErthTKv2.tbm
Wed: AikidoBigDojo.tbm
Thur: Boxshu.tbm
Fri: Greykido.tbm
Sat: Rk-MMA.tbm
Sun: Boxshu_mushu_v2.tbm

Thing is, instead of QI restrictions for lobbys, it has ranked lobby restrictions. So you start at lobbys that have:
Lobby1: Rank 50,000 +
Lobby2: Rank 35,000 - 50,000
Lobby3: Rank 35,000 - 15,000
Lobby4: Rank 15,000 - 5,000
Lobby5: Rank 5,000 - 1,000
Lobby6: Rank 1000 - 250
Lobby7: Rank 250 - 1.

Since QI restrictions should also be in place to stop alts and in general, higher QI 'deserves' (kinda) a better rank. Lobbys 1 - 3 could be for all. Lobbys 4 -5 could be 1,000 QI plus. Lobby 6 could be 2,000 QI + and lobby 7 could be 3,000 QI +
Last edited by FistofLife; Aug 28, 2014 at 06:44 PM.
I want it to be made clear that this thread is being heavily monitored so please for the love of god don't derail it.

Once we've got a very good rough draft polished out a bit on what a logical rating system designed catered to Toribash, it'll be brought up to the devs.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
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